Fake/Counterfeit Russian Coin - Any Info?

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Author	Replies: 7 / Views: 4,393
Paulsz Pillar of the Community Canada 2187 Posts	Posted 02/09/2017 9:42 pm Hi all, I have this Russian counterfeit coin. I found info online saying it was counterfeit but couldn't find any details as to when it was made (which period of time) and it's composition. Just wondering if anyone here would know Thanks Report this Post to the Staff

gxseries Pillar of the Community Australia 3831 Posts	Posted 02/10/2017 09:12 am This is one of the modern counterfeits made within the last 5 years. Composition? Who knows - might need a XRF scan. Might be silver plated lead. Origin is either China or Eastern Europe in particular Belarus. The biggest giveaway is that this is too perfect - coins struck in that era were not that circular given the technology back then. This particular genuine coin has an interesting edge - it looks like some dinosaur feet / fern pattern. I would ask for a refund immediately. My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm Regularly updated at least once a month. Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 02/10/2017 09:34 am This type is not in my new upcoming World Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit chapter (i.e., ~ 100 specimens illustrated and XRF assayed) from 1500-1850 but my 2Cents this LOOKS EARLIER? than a modern Chinese forgery. Note the old lamination mark above the 3? in 1735 and just the overall irregular toning. But I could be wrong. When you encounter these IN PERSON as I indicate in my Chapter on how to easily detect Chinese Forgeries check the EDGE. You can't fake a 250 year old edge or even a 100 year old edge. It looks NEW if made recently. No marks from circulation. Of course there is weight and most Chinese forgeries are of a German silver (Cu/Zn/Ni) or Fe/Ni composition after 100 assays of these types. Occasionally but infrequently even debased silver but Chinese forgers are SO CHEAP and RUTHLESS we rarely see silver entering the composition. However - there appears to be raised cast air bubbles - look between the lettering on the reverse. Without coin in hand and this irregular toning it could be either? I can't rule out modern Chinese Forgery which was toned to appear aged. A dangerous coin. John Lorenzo Numismatist United States Report this Post to the Staff
gxseries Pillar of the Community Australia 3831 Posts	Posted 02/10/2017 10:24 am John, I strongly disagree with your opinion on this one. I have been following the Russian coin market for a good decade and have a good idea when such counterfeits appeared in the market. The first few counterfeits appeared around ten years ago when Russian coins started to become popular. Most counterfeited type was the Elizabeth I coins (1740s - 50s). The first type of this counterfeit was actually easy to identify. Most of them were from China. The next focused area was Peter II (1727 - 1729). By then, significant improvements were made from the Eastern Europe counterfeit ring. The peak silver prices made this more profitable for counterfeiters. When silver was at 50USD / oz, massive amount of counterfeit Soviet rubles were sold at melt value - buyers thinking that they had a steal however it was the counterfeits that made the most of out of it. By then damage was done - all kinds of counterfeits became possible as the counterfeits had too much funds. Examples can be seen here: http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php...re-of-fakes/ http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php...coming-easy/ As far as I am concerned, whether this is a recent or "old" counterfeit / replica / copy etc - I would ask for my money back. My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm Regularly updated at least once a month. Report this Post to the Staff
Paulsz Pillar of the Community Canada 2187 Posts	Posted 02/10/2017 11:34 am Here is the edge I didn't pay for the coin. Got it from a friend. We both knew it was counterfeits and since I'm the one who really collects coins, he gave it to me Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 02/10/2017 11:47 am gxseries - you are probably right - a Chinese MODERN FORGERY with a good toning job or a very recent cast (i.e., mid to late 20thC) - those cast bubbles are very prominent but not a 19thC cast product - recent. No doubt its not a contemporary circulating counterfeit of any stature or worth whether cast or struck. Lost money. See here: http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis...icleId=19585 Check the edge and probably one of the two alloys previously mentioned. IMO - if someone says a coin is an iron modern forgery - my guess its Fe/Ni. Just like someone saying its a lead counterfeit. Nothing is a 100% lead counterfeit. Its ALWAYS alloyed with Sb or Bi for hardness (Antimony or Bismuth). IMO. Why add nickel. Not sure but I have seen 25% Fe in Chinese Modern Forgeries not magnetic. Once you get above 30% Fe (don't quote me exactly) it turns magnetic. This is why they go with Fe/Ni. Fe/Ni like German silver of course both appear to be silver in appearance and nothing is better of course than silver debased with copper with some added lead to bring near regal weight (seldom seen). Its the usual - supply the weight, take a picture of the edge and this will assist our decisions here in this forum. JPL Edited by colonialjohn 02/10/2017 12:02 pm Report this Post to the Staff
gxseries Pillar of the Community Australia 3831 Posts	Posted 02/11/2017 12:29 am The edge is definitely not correct. It looks like it's thumbs up (or down depending how you look at it?) I had pictures of my coin edges somewhere but they are of poor quality. This is one that I found on the net My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm Regularly updated at least once a month. Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 02/11/2017 3:43 pm Well with the edge shot it appears its an older forgery than the current German Silver or Fe/Ni pieces currently being produced. I do see cast bubbles so without XRF I would say an early to mid-20thC forgery? Most Chinese Modern forgeries don't even bother with edge devices and this looks similar to the regal type edge devices which hints to me earlier than a Modern Chinese forgery. Still I could be wrong ... would be an interesting piece to do an XRF analysis on its make-up. Edited by colonialjohn 02/11/2017 3:46 pm Report this Post to the Staff
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