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1955-D Lincoln Cent DDR

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coop's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2017  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The arrows are pointing to the MD on the images. The fields are showing the heavy die flow. The image is not mine, but made from several images to give the 3-D effect. But it helps show the differences between die flow (in the fields) and MD (on the devices with arrows). Ray Parkhurst is the one who made these. I use them to show differences on devices. On these two images you can see the die flow and the MD (with arrows) closer up.
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CoinMasters's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2017  6:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cwb, now you have truly helped me. I was under the mistaken notion that Die Deterioration Doubling, Abrasion Doubling, and various forms of wear on a die that creates worthless doubling, were all included under the heading of MD. I see them posted on here all the time, and everybody says MD. I did some checking, you're absolutely right, Die wear is not a form of MD. Thank you.
Coop, as long as I'm on a learning streak, maybe you could help me out me out too. I see the MD in your pic and understand it came about by excess die movement. I always thought that die flow was from a deteriorating die. How does the die flow figure in with the MD? I see it goes in a different direction than on the fields. It just helps to identify MD?
Edited by CoinMasters
04/12/2017 6:14 pm
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coop's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2017  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I often refer to die wear on the multi-hubbed dies coins. On the Single squeeze die coins I refer to them as a Die Deterioration issue. Why the difference to me?
On the die wear examples the device is altered/enlarged as the die is wearing out.
1955-D-Lincoln-Cent-DDR
On the Die Deterioration examples, the area next to the devices on the field is show the deterioration.
1955-D-Lincoln-Cent-DDR
This is why I use the different terms. Each is die wear, but they appear different on the two different methods of the dies as they wear. Probably no one else recognizes this, but it is just my own opinion.
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CoinMasters's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2017  7:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well I recognize it now Coop, thanks. Any idea why the wear appears different on the two methods? I think maybe on the multi-hub the field is more compacted and less susceptible to flow. The wear has to go somewhere and concentrates on the devices themselves.
Not to change the subject, but when I was checking what Cwb said, I noticed a lot of people think that MD does sometimes involve a second strike. I guess sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. I have learned three major lessons on this thread.
Thanks to all that participated.
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coop's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2017  04:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
MD is movement after the first strike.

The multi-hubbed dies have a taller profile on the devices. The single squeeze dies have a lower profile. So I feel that differences in devices height is the reason. Also the deices are stronger/thinner on the multi-hubbed dies.
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CoinCents's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2017  07:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinCents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I to am happy that this thread got into such detail regarding MD and Die Deterioration. Thanks for asking all those questions CM and thanks claude and coop for explaining it in such way that I can understand it.

I never really thought of why looked different between the 2 minting processes.
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CoinMasters's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2017  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Your welcome CC. I never really thought about it either. It's good we continue to learn.
I've been on here long enough to know most of what has been said here and should have looked closer at my coin before posting it. I'm glad I did post it though, because I now know some things I didn't. The biggest thing for me personally, is that Die Wear is not MD. On reflection, I think most people probably pick that up in a month or so. It's referred to a lot on here as MD, and 98% of what I learn is from here. Well, I know it now. The next biggest thing I've learned is the difference between Die Wear and Die Deterioration Doubling and why they are different. I collaterally learned the difference of Die Abrasion Doubling as well. Vertical striation lines can help in identifying Machine Doubling as evidenced in Coop's Atomic Pic. I have also learned that MD is thought to sometimes bounce off of the coin completely thus creating a "second strike". This is not always the case however, and cannot be confirmed on a coin by coin basis. In either case, it is considered to occur during the strike. I base this conclusion on comments like " Mechanical Doubling is a blanket name given to many types of doubling that can happen during the strike." as contained in this thread. Another comment from Mr. Mike Diamond supports the idea it doesn't always lift completely off the coin, can be found in the following link.
http://goccf.com/t/278297
Mr. Diamond is the man the experts ask when they're in doubt. That's a good reason for my position on the matter, a better reason is what he said is very logical. While I do concede the die sometimes separates during the bounce, it is not always the case. Since it can't always be determined, yet one strike is a known, Strike Doubling is considered to occur during the strike and appropriately classified as a mint error. If it was considered to be after the strike, it would be classified as damage.
I strongly dislike having to come back to this, but I feel impressionable Newbies should be able to hear both sides.
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CoinCents's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2017  2:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinCents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good summation.

I thought with Strike Doubling that there is a definite rotation with it whether it be n,s,e w. plus the devices would show the full width/height of the device.
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CoinMasters's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2017  2:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes always a rotation, but the flattened portion not as high The width varies with the rotation.
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