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Counterfeit Detection: 1963-D Roosevelt Dime With Altered Bands

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CCFPress's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2017  12:52 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add CCFPress to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
NGC - Careful examination of this 1963-D Roosevelt dime reveals an alteration to the torch.

Read More: Counterfeit Detection Series

Coins are altered in a variety of ways for a number of different reasons. Some alterations may be unintentional, such as corrosion or altered color due to improper storage. Other alterations—altered dates or added mintmarks—are attempts to make a coin resemble a rarer date.

There are also alterations that try to make the coin appear to be a better condition. In this category, various forms of improper cleaning are most common, but there are other methods that people employ to artificially enhance a coin's appearance. This 1963-D Roosevelt dime features one of the more unusual alterations.

Counterfeit-Detection:-1963-D-Roosevelt-Dime-With-Altered-Bands
1963-D Roosevelt dime with an odd alteration.


Many collectors of Roosevelt dimes look for specimens that have distinct, separated lines in the torch on the reverse. These coins are designated "FT" for Full Torch by NGC on the certification label and can sometimes carry a substantial premium over coins without the FT designation.

The 1963-D, for example, trades for $45 in MS 65 FT versus $20 in MS 65, $170 in MS 66 FT versus $30 in MS 66 and a whopping $1,500 in MS 67 FT versus $145 in MS 67, according to the NGC Price Guide. There is clearly a lot of incentive for someone to make a non-FT dime appear to be an FT dime, especially in high grades.

Counterfeit-Detection:-1963-D-Roosevelt-Dime-With-Altered-Bands
Altered bands on 1963-D Roosevelt dime.


A sharp-eyed NGC grader spotted that someone had attempted to do that with this coin. The torch's bottom band had been reengraved in an attempt to receive the FT designation. This alteration is not particularly well done, as the line is far too sharp and also slants downward to the right. Nonetheless, even an amateur attempt such as this can fool many collectors.

Hopefully the person who submitted this coin did not pay a significant premium for it thinking that it was a Full Torch example. It is important to always closely examine any prospective purchase, but it is particularly necessary when dealing with a coin that purports to be rare and valuable. For added confidence, buy a coin that is certified by NGC—both the numeric grade and FT designation are covered by the NGC Guarantee.
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Coconutjoe's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2017  12:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coconutjoe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting. Thanks for posting!
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chase55t's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2017  1:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chase55t to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Its a shame what people will do to beautiful coins for more $$$. The money is nice but the history and originality of the coin is what matters.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2017  2:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Do not assume this technique will not be perfected, allowing some to slip into legitimate holders.
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CoinCollector2012's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2017  2:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinCollector2012 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is it just me, or does it kind of look like a clad coin. Ive never seen a silver coin that has that dull grey look.

It's probably just the pics.
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Andrew99's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2017  2:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Why are there no Full Hair strand bust dollar or full drapery seated half designations? Is it because truly rare coins do not need special designations to make them seem rare? Take a common coin like a Merc or a Roosie and create a single attribute that most coins do not have. Instant rarity! Now they can be marketed as a rare coin, a great investment at 10 x the "common" BU price. The lesson here is not to look closer to see if FT has been re-engraved, but to not buy into the whole scam from the beginning.
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 Posted 05/10/2017  4:11 pm  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The lesson here is not to look closer to see if FT has been re-engraved, but to not buy into the whole scam from the beginning.


Full bell, full split bands, full torch, full head, full steps, etc. are not a scam. If you are a seller and "don't buy into" the fact that some coins are very well struck, you could be leaving hundreds or even thousands of dollars on the table (from those that DO "buy into" such distinctions). People that buy from you will brag how they "cherry picked" a valuable coin.

I guess if this is a scam, then PCGS, NGC and ANACS are in on it (to their financial benefit, of course).
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 Posted 05/10/2017  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Of course it is a scam and of course PCGS, NGC, and ANACS are in on it. They invented it. A coin that is 98% struck up should not sell for 10% of the price of a full band, full bell or whatever coin. This relationship of 6x to 10x does not hold for truly rare coins that are not the subject of this aggressive marketing manipulation. It is no different than the manufactured market for MS-69 to MS-70 common modern coins.
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macmercury's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2017  6:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The big 3 created the system and a lot is depending on it, but not everything has to be follow to the letter. That's why there are variations of grade in the same graded slabs, and the buyer still have to pick and choose. But investors prefer to have additional insurance, so we got CAC to thank for taking care of that too.

See what new businesses are going to secure our hobby into the future?
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 Posted 05/11/2017  10:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Premiums for Full split band Mercury dimes and Full Head SLQ existed before the TPG's. Not sure about FBL's and I don't think Full Steps were a big thing until afterward.
Edited by Conder101
05/11/2017 10:50 am
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 Posted 05/11/2017  3:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tryna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is not a scam, but is a sham.

Sham
adjective
Bogus or false.

Andrew99 was not far off.

When you think of it in the past the Bands on a Mercury dime used to need to be rounded now the split just has to be full. 99% full doesn't do it. So does a coin with one percent better strike warrant multiples of value?

We shouldn't think too much about it though or we may start questioning the MS70 vs. MS69 then the market will falter the black hole will expand.... How come when I think about this I think of Tulips?
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 Posted 05/11/2017  4:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So does a coin with one percent better strike warrant multiples of value?
If some fool is willing to pay it, sure.

I feel the same way about 69 vs. 70 on modern issues. I cannot tell the difference between them, so why would I pay the crazy premium for the 70? I would not. However, there are those who do. Their money, their decision.
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coinlover1899's Avatar
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 Posted 05/11/2017  5:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinlover1899 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is it just me, or does it kind of look like a clad coin. Ive never seen a silver coin that has that dull grey look.

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Debrajc's Avatar
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 Posted 05/11/2017  7:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Debrajc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It has the look of a clad dime to me also. Must just be the photo.

And yes, it's a shame that there are so many things for a collector to look for now a days with alterations.
It's a shame.
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 Posted 05/11/2017  11:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Reading all this is certainly making me Happy...happy that I'd rather stick with my nice banged up, readable circulated with personality (some even jewelry-ready) readable dates and some detail coins, I most likely will not 1)overpay by much, 2) buy a skilled fake as indicated here 3)be disappointed, angry or hassled with returns/payment problems etc. I will stick with what I have and be Satisfied.

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