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 Replies: 17 / Views: 4,649 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4911 Posts |
here's a very itneresting Barber half dollar I picked up today..i had the chance to XRF it but completely forgot  but it appears to be a brass piece that was plated. the coin appears to have been deliberately scratched and most of the plating is gone..revealing the metal underneath..this is an interesting coin to say the least. @colonialjohn and @swamperbob if this is a counterfeit you'd like to see in hand, I will gladly send it out for your examination. all comments welcomed as well as a value estimate from those of you who may have an idea of value, because I don't know where to start as this coin is so unusual to me.      Feel free to call me Will.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
581 Posts |
Very interesting piece, is it a well worn counterfeit or weakly struck? I have heard of contemporary tokens Morgan's etc but I'm amazed the barber's had counterfeiters as well! Goes to show you people will do anything to dodge the tax man even back then
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
That half dollar might represent a half days pay. It was worth it to counterfeit them.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
It's hard to believe something as bad as this would circulate long enough to show this much wear.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4415 Posts |
Most of the cast counterfeits that I see are lead or pot metal that closer simulates the color of silver. Looks like this brass one was plated. Cast pieces have tended to sell in the $3-$5 range; this, to my experience. Die struck pieces are far less common and would likely sell in the $50-$100 range or more. The majority of cast pieces I've seen are Barber coins or early dated Walker halves. |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
4911 Posts |
the coin appears to have had a fair bit of detail missing in the central areas since the beginning of it's life...but I could be wrong. they seem shallow and not the proper pattern to be real wear. it reminds me of the old Canadian tokens that had weak detail to simulate wear. so it appears die struck? I would agree it doesn't really remind me of a cast example. although interesting, I may be listing this one on the bay tonight depending on the value..not that I don't like it, it's just that I need to generate the funds for something else. thanks for all the help so far  Feel free to call me Will.
Edited by thedollarman
04/23/2017 3:03 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4415 Posts |
I suspect this one was cast and not struck from dies ... anyone else?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
What's the weight, by the way?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
I don't know if clay-sand or lost wax casting could produce some of the depth of detail shown on this example, particularly in the denticles, the reverse motto, or on the reeding; however, molten brass shrinks as it cools, as do tombac alloys, and casting molds have to be designed to accommodate this or the metal will "pull away" from the mold.
I suspect this may be die-struck from transfer dies created from discarded and defaced master hubs. Look at the pronounced repunching and doubling on the last two digits of the date.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
I have a similar French brass counterfeit. There is no trace of plating left.  It's not a great photo, but you can see the lack of detail is the same as the Barber. I've wondered whether these were struck on plated planchets and lost their detail as the plating wore off or was dissolved off for silver recovery. Strong acid could have removed detail from the underlying brass. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
It is also possible they were deliberately made to look worn. That was a common trick of counterfeiters. It give the impression they the coin has been in circulation for a long time and that a lot of people have accepted it in the past. This could easily have been made in the 20's or 30's using a worn 1911 half to create the die or mold from.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4409 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4911 Posts |
thanks for all the help everyone..this coin kind of appears die struck to me considering how sharp the arrows are.
Meadowviewcollectior..i sent them an email..thank you.
all the help is appreciated. sadly I don't have a weight..i will get an VRF of it and weight soon as I can.
Feel free to call me Will.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4415 Posts |
Quote:
..this coin kind of appears die struck to me considering how sharp the arrows are. The arrows and other details on most of the BCCS counterfeits appear equally sharp to our OP's piece. That 1911 quarter is one of the best cast pieces I've seen. @Meadowview .... Thanks for posting that BCCS link. I didn't know that collector group existed. Now, I'll have to dig out some of my pieces. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
Quote:
It's hard to believe something as bad as this would circulate long enough to show this much wear. It probably looked better when its silver wash was intact. As for the detail, it probably has not lost that much over time. It's a so-so cast copy. Back in the day making a counterfeit looked use was one thing crooks did to make easier to pass. If it was worn, someone else must of accepted so it most be good, right?  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
If I was to guess it would be mercuric silver amalgamation WASH (not silver plating) over the host coin which in this case is most likely brass and not bronze or copper. Silver wash on brass wears off QUICKER than silver wash on copper or silver plate on copper. Copper is the preferred host. I am selling 2-3 coins/week for a year all with XRF analysis on ebay at seller ID: johnmenc - take a look just to get educated on the myriad of alloys used. This coin obviously does not have the same premium as Davignon Bust Half Dollars normally made in German silver or debased silver and seen with trace cobalt signatures coming from the silver only. My new book "Forgotten Coins" is about 3-4 months away and is almost ready to send to Amazon Books. It will explain the difference between French Plate and U.K. Sheffield type silvering, etc, and will indirectly explain why your coin has lost most of its silvering SO QUICKLY being a recent 20thC piece. Personally I have had enough generic historical numismatic books with so-called "named" authors just compiling already existing information on the Internet === how about a good scientific numismatic book for something a little DIFFERENT and a little CHANGE? ... <VVBG>. John Lorenzo Numismatist United States |
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Replies: 17 / Views: 4,649 |
Posted 04/23/2017 05:47 am
