Find The MS-65 Morgan

I want to make something clear so people don't get the wrong idea. As I have stated in other threads, if a person likes slabbed coins for the look of the slabs, etc. Good for them! I think a set of slabbed coins can look very appealing. I even understand why some people would want matching labels for continuity.

What I don't like is how slabbing has ruined the hobby as it used to be when more coins were "respected" for being what they were. Slabs have robbed individual dates/MMs of their values, put an unnatural tunnel-vision-type-focus onto key dates.

Before these self-proclaimed "experts" offered their services, [red]every[red] coin you found had a special value to it based upon mintage and mint mark. It was enjoyable to find a handful of coins and open the RedBook (only source we had really), to discover how the hobby valued each individual coin. Yes, we also knew the RedBook was way overpriced - but that's another discussion. The RedBook though graded from G up through UNC for each entry b/c every coin was more "respected" for the piece of history that it was/is.

As was even said on a recent thread in this forum, the rest of the world looked at the US (with more disposable income at the time the TPGS were emerging) as being foolish for paying someone to do what they could do for themselves! People with less money to throw at the hobby understood the real reason these companies got a foothold was the marketers were smart enough to play on the emotional/psychological "need" of people to have an "expert" (self proclaimed -- worthy of the title or not) stamp of approval onto their coin.

Let the years roll by and a few smart marketers see yet another opportunity to make more money off of collectors by offering to grade the job the "experts" already did and affix a green sticker! The sticker, in effect , says the sticker company's "experts" are "better experts" qualified to grade the "expertise" of the TPG "experts." This would make a good comedy routine if it were not fact.

What is hurting the hobby even more nowadays is that the masses, b/c of internet sales of masses of slabs, are deluding newbies in the hobby to put absolute (misguided as seen in this very thread) faith in these TPGs (while the TPGS smile and rake in the $$$). Newbies just automatically think a TPGs are a vital part of the hobby and slabbing is an absolute must to know a coins "true value."

Yet take that same MS70 coin out of the slab, and all of a sudden the MS-70 big bucks value gets thrown in the trash with the broken plastic from the slab. The , although it has not changed, is somehow less valuable without the plastic and paper it was encased in. So where is the true value being placed now?

Is the value on the actual historic piece of artwork known as the coin, or is it in the plastic in the wastebasket? At least the TPG got their piece of the pie... and likely will again when the coin is re-submitted (but may not come back as an MS70 the next time - even if there is absolutely no difference in the coin when resubmitted).

Snake oil

TPGs also will not be accountable. They will not say exactly what makes the coin you send to them the grade they apply to it. How very convenient... for them.

If a person realizes the facts that keep coming up all the time on this forum about buying the coin and not the holder, and like slabs for what they are, then go for it and I hope that person has all the fun they should have. Hobbies are about fun.

A couple years ago, believe it or not, there were more snake oil salesmen (in my opinion) that tried to start a company whose "even better experts" would affix a sticker... believe it or not... to verify the CAC "Better experts" were as "better experts" as they claimed to be when they graded the TPG "experts" grading work! Yes - you would have not one, but TWO verification stickers on a slab! I think the new one was to be called the MACAC sticker.

Side note: When slabbing was introduced, we joked, "Watch, some day some other snake oil salesman will invent a way to make money off of grading how well the slabs were initially graded." WE said this purely in jest b/c we KNEW no one would ever be dumb enough to fall for that (please note - the last statement is not aimed at anyone - it is a simply a factual recount of what we said and believed back then). And yet the MAACAC has already been tried... give it a few more years.

It was the MACAC thread that inspired me to make and post the following graphic of where this looks like its heading after enough time passes:


Buy the slab, forget the coin:



And just one more time to be clear. I think if a person likes slabs for being slabs - great - have fun collecting them! Its a hobby.

From those pictures, I am surprised the third one was not the one to grade MS-65 (that would have been my choice). However, I am not surprised the MS-65 one was the first coin; both one and three look like they would make that grade to me.

@Mike
Actually, I have a lot of time on my hands and enjoy writing. And as to laughing - Thanks for being kind, but laughing is exactly what I hope the picture inspires. The picture is meant to be an extreme comical way of looking at how reality has already started to take us. Hopefully after people get a good laugh, the picture sticks in their mind to be pondered. In fact I have always had a positive feedback like this when posting the pic on various threads and forums.

My writing may seem like I am frustrated with TPGS, but the fact of the matter is, being a former teacher, I am trying to make sure newbies (and people who were not around to witness the start of these companies) understand these companies are neither necessary, or deserving of the misguided faith people have put into them.

Yes - now that decades have passed, these companies now have more experience with rare coins (achieving what they claimed to have upon starting up as self-proclaimed experts) than the average collector. After all, how many of us on the forum have handled over a thousand 1916-D dimes personally?

But the inconsistency in their methods when the same coin is re-submitted (numerous times) even to the same company seems to be ignored by those placing a misguided faith in the TPGs. The status these companies want is blindly accepted by the masses just b/c "well, everyone thinks so." I see people discussing whether or not PCGS or NGC "experts" are better, basing most of it upon people tend to pay more on ebay for PCGS, and liken it to when I once heard a couple of my high school students arguing over which brand of bottled spring water tasted better. When put to the actual test they could not discern which was which, but b/c they "knew" theirs was best - they stuck to their original claims.

The major TPGS developed a totally scientific scanner/computer grading system in the late 90s. The only thing the machines could not discern was eye appeal - this could have either added or detracted a point by human inspection after the computer did its job.

So why did the TPGs drop the scientifically accurate systems? I suspect (note that word) the TPGs knew that once the system was in place, re-submitting, crossovers, and in general, their services would lessen as the years passed because the number of coins people submit is limited to how many were made.

The computer system would also mean the companies had accountability as the computer could explain exactly WHY the coin was graded as it was - which is something they cannot and will not do today. Their proclamation of grading being an "art" is exactly the best way to keep in business, not be held accountable, and to keep making money off the hobby.

One day I suspect they will resurrect the computer grading system. In fact I would not be surprised with even our cell phones being able to have face recognition tech if some geek could make grading almost into a phone app (again - with human eye needing to put in or take away a point for eye appeal) nowadays. Then the companies will be forced to explain how their computers are better at grading. After another 50 years they can then claim their programmers have come up with a better program and so will tell people that to get the "real" grade, they need to pay and resubmit again.



If people like slabs for what they are - again, I say go for it. They look nice. I don't want to see people being suckered into believing the hype from the companies though about their services being essential to the hobby. The only hobby essentials are the people who collect and the coins. Albums, slabs, tongs, capsules, are all secondary and should not make or break the perceived value of the two essential elements.

Thanks for the video. I did enjoy it.

Amazing in the same video you hear it said its not good to buy raw coins, and the woman makes sure to state this idea for emphasis. Then the collector tells the story of the 1823 he bought raw for what would have turned out to be a tremendous bargain had he kept it!

The collector also shows his value is not on the coin, but the label when he says something to the effect that when he had it graded, he just accepted the grade instead of sending it in over and over (for the higher grade). This is exactly what I wish more people would pay attention to. The label is a fantasy if the coin being resubmitted would not always be graded the same each time... but accountability would kill profits.

For this collector and the people like him, its not mostly about the coin, its about what the label & plastic declares the coin to be. He is constantly talking about whether or not the coin in hand has the best grade according to the TPG records from different companies.

Its sad companies can take advantage of people for literal thousands of dollars by making a competition to see who can register the best set of labels. This is especially true when the labels could change upon a resubmission.

I don't think even if I had money to burn, like this guy seems to, that I would take a part in this game. The coins themselves are too special to me for what they are.