Collecting Slabbed Coins Gone Overboard

The poster doth protest too much, methinks. I imagine that there is an employee or owner of a TPG that is trying to fill this post with hyperbole.

Do a search of NGC in the Canadian coin section of ebay. You'll be hard-pressed to find any recent year coins that are not MS-68-69-70 for originally released PR or SP-66 or 67's. You won't find any other company with anything like that. The mint knows better what grade they are producing than an American lousy grading company. Top-tier my eye; a 50 years of learning and collecting eye, not a let's-make-money eye. Stick to over-grading US coins and I'll keep grading my Canadian coins myself, thank you very much.

He says the PCGS "client" (who says that but someone who works for a company ?) chooses the level to be used. Well if that's true, that would mean the client has to know the grade and value before submitting it and all coins would be the same cost. Take a sample coin that is worth $295 in VF-20 condition. It arrives and the TPG grades it at VF-30, so the value is over the $300 max for the "economy" price, so he would have to have it graded at the higher cost. Thus higher grade = higher cost- how can he argue with that ?

Most won't get submitted, but all you have to do is look at the Toonies, good luck finding a 68 or higher for many of those. You can also go in their population report and see what they have graded, it's not hard to find coins below 66. As for ultra moderns 68 or lower is a terrible grade on most silver coins.




No they don't, they're marketing department is telling you that pushing superior quality so people buy more.




Why would anyone submit that has no idea how to grade at all unless using it as a learning tool. Of course most submitters have an idea of what to expect grade wise. I really don't understand what you mean by all coins would be the same cost. All coins are the same cost on the submissions, you can't mix and match tier pricing on a submission.




NGC is the only one I have heard of adding the fee if something grades out higher and I have never heard of it on boarder-line values. When I have heard of it happening it is when you are several hundred to thousands of dollars off trying to sneak something in.

You seem to have some very strong opinions and ideas what the facts are for someone who has no experience using them. It's clear you don't understand how the submission process works and didn't bother to look into it. Keep collecting raw if that's what you prefer everyone should collect how they want to, just please stop spreading misinformation about the process. No I don't work for them, I just want people to have ACCURATE information to make up their own minds.

I really have to breathe out a huge sigh when I hear people talking about MS-70 coins. ANYTHING produced by a machine nowadays CAN NOT be "perfect" and MS-70 is "supposedly" perfect. As someone with a degree in mechanical engineering, 30 years in that discipline, and 40 years as a collector of Canadian coinage, I'll tell you that I've never seen any coin that was 'perfect", but viewed many 69's and 70's. If you moved the calendar back 10-15 years, you would see 69 very seldom ... grading creep has advanced anything near 60 up at least 2 points and the TPG's are rolling in cash from folks itching to get an additional number or two in resubmissions. I really can't believe how many innocents are being taken advantage of ... but high end collectors and dealers looking to resell really DO need to use TPG's. It's the people who think that they HAVE TO send stuff to TPG's to be accepted are those that I feel sorry for. I still think that TPG's are just a racket, but still appropriate for a small percentage of collectors, but NOT everyone.

Sorry for the lack of sufficient wording to get my meaning across. I was meaning to say the experiences of the people who supplied me with the information as my own personal experience, as compared to theirs, is like any other collectors seeking information.




Correct.

I humbly would say the same to you concerning your position.



However, if we evaluate what has been shared:
I shared data from sources who were there - this is what I meant by "personal experience," as well as the meaning also embodying the time and effort I spent to research professional opinions from people who have made their life in numismatics for decades. I tried to find people who had had more experience with coins than I could ever hope to have - and did.


You have repeated your original sayings while stating the opposite position is only rumor and myth - with nothing to back up this position. I assume we both realize citing the TOGs as their own credible sources would be invalid since the discussion is about them. I have yet to see a business that will give negative opinions of their services.

Please cite your sources equivalent with those I have already cited. Review the credentials of the individuals I solicited information from (if need be) before dismissing the information they have provided me with as being trivial or equivalent to that of just a hobbyist.

Apples to oranges if you have not been annually sending in monster boxes for years. The dealers I mentioned specifically brought up monster boxes and the percentages they found b/c graders, sitting there all day looking at the same kind of coin, over, and over, and over from the same customer is a lot different than a much smaller (comparatively) submission from someone who is a typical hobbyist customer. The shortcut is simple. A lot of the masses nowadays buy the plastic and not the coin.



Using Rich here since he is local and Ray is not. The thought of asking for a receipt as proof never entered my mind b/c in everything else I have ever dealt with him, there has never been a doubt raised by his actions or honesty. I did not ask to see the receipts for the used Dansco albums he had for sale either when I bought a couple - so how do I know he did not steal them and lie to me that they were a part of the recent collection buy he told me about? Did not seeing his purchase receipt for the bust half he "allegedly" bought from a Heritage Auction and was selling to me that day prove he stole it? Of course not to all of these.

Simply put, I personally know him, prefer to do business with him since he has always been very good to me when I have, I know I can trust him, have yet to have been conned or lied to by him, and find his good reputation is locally shared by the collectors in this area. I would venture that his reputation is also why his coin shop is so prosperous as compared to others in the area. He still has a lot of glass cases filled with trays of coins as opposed to other shops I have been to locally who hardly have anything out to browse. The only negative I have personally seen so far concerning Rich was the post you linked to - and which turned out to affirm he was not selling a fake at all.


So to clarify ... you are asking me take your advice as a fellow collector who I only know through CCF, vs the advice of personal acquaintances and friends who:
1. Both have made their living - its not a part time hobby - in coins.
2. Have dealt annually with bigger submissions than a normal collector by far (understatement of the year),
3. Have dealt with all aspects of running a coin business including evaluating all businesses they deal with in order to determine the best way to run their own business (and have been very successful)
4. Have both been graders for TPGs.
5. Have both been educated in the grading classes.
6. Both independently shared the information with me at different times.
7. Have both shared with me what it was like to be in the position of a grader at the TPG,
8. Both have always dealt honestly with me in every transaction.

(and both, BTW, at one time would have been the very "experts" who you choose to place so much trust in)

And stop sharing that information?!

You accused the information they shared with me as being a myth because... you have said it is and (just somehow) you know its a fact they are spreading myth?!

Wow.


Put yourself in my shoes.

I am facing a single hobbyist's input (based on comparatively tiny submissions) vs. the two above professionals whom I personally know.

The list of credentials above is being weighed against, "because," and when pressed for more, "because I have experience sending in coins and they met my expectations...so what these guys (somehow brushing aside their level of professionalism) say is myth."

At present I will need information of a pertinent/relevant/equivalent level before I can call these guys incompetent in their professional experiences.

I do not believe you have the same experience of annually sending in monster boxes, correct?

A person can know how to operate a 14ft fishing boat (personal coin submissions on a private level) with outboard motor, but this is a far cry from saying I can accurately run an ocean liner (years of annual monster box submissions), or say that the same techniques must be used when for both boats.




This is an ad hominem response.




Ad hominem replies are classified as an informal fallacy (among other types). In debate this type of reply is seen as helping to support the opposite side of the issue.


Ad homnem replies are defined as resulting from one side of a debate knowing they have no valid points with which to counter the opposite side's valid facts which have been presented. In other words - these are defines as coming from an emotional outlash - and is a typical response we humans have if we are unaware of the concept.


Ad hominem replies tend to corrode legitimate debate into an argument of personal pride, anger flares, nothing is accomplished, and the people submitting to ad hominem responses (on both sides) end up making fallacious opinions about the people they were originally debating.

I have not, will not, and see no sense in thinking I can actually discern your personal motivations, feelings, or anything else concerning your person. If this information was important to the factual debate (emotions almost never are and nomrally only hinder fact), I simply would have asked you!

So again I say:

You know... this line of debate has been repeated ad nauseam in other threads... and the arguments remain circular and unresolved, as it will also do here. This thread might have to be moved to the Main Coin Forum or a Third Party Grading forum, since it is has been dominated by those who are at arms's length from the Canadian collecting mindset and market (which is considerably different from US and European collecting communities and markets) and discussions concerning grading companies that Canadians rarely use...

Yes, I realize Terry was on a bit of a rant... but I support his statements. I say that, even though I collect Canadian and NFLD coins in PCGS holders... and this includes modern coins like nickel dollars, and I also have competitive registry sets - that part I actually enjoy!!

So why would I contradict myself? One factor not mentioned here is the time and effort concerned to fill out PCGS or NGC paperwork, ship coins with insurance, dealing with Canada-US customs both times across the border... yes, I do sometimes save money and hunt and send in raw coins myself, but if there is a gem example already in a PCGS holder - I'll just shrug and pay the premium prices that Terry says is "crazy". Why? Because time is the most valuable commodity I have, and if I can save time at the expense of a few bucks, I will do it...