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Collecting Slabbed Coins Gone Overboard

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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2017  11:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When recently the Newman collection and in Canada the Landon collection for example some of the coolest coins came onto the market place in many years, they were mostly all graded for a good reason, mainly assurance and the ability to garner max value. As I'm told the famous Calgary collector cuts or unslab all coins he purchases, each to their own. There was an error loonie and toonie in a recent Montreal auction that was discussed here with differing opinion on being real, if these two coins were PCGS or NGC slab it would have doubled it's value. There is a reason most of the best coins are in some slab, but in the end each to their own
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DEVLEC's Avatar
Canada
3234 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2017  11:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DEVLEC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_nk...ions&_sop=10

Here is one European example with some of their nice offerings..

Coins offered seem to represent a vast variety of countries..and a fair amount are slabbed and probably quite scarce for their respected countries and the grades being offered...

Is this auction house getting it wrong ?.. I don't think so..

There is certainly a place for slabbing "the right coin.."
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 Posted 10/07/2017  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As I've stated before, I buy (or try to buy) only raw coins since, what I collect, I feel that I'm a better opinion than a sight-unseen face and hands somewhere. I DO, however know more than a handful of Graders who work for different TPG's. They say that the average time that they spend on a coin is 15 seconds .. some around 10 seconds. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say 30 seconds (way too much time to look at luster). That's 120 coins an hour times, say, $25 TPG fee ... that's $3000 an hour to holster it in a piece of plastic coupled with a square of lettered cardboard. That';s also $6000 an hour if what they say about the 15 seconds is true. Where else would a normal collector spend $3000/hr to get someone's opinion that has no "standard" amongst the different TPG's. Give me a raw coin, a loupe and reference material if needed and I'm a happy collector. I have over 5000 Vicky large cents and not a single one has been near plastic.
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Canada
34 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2017  12:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Percy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I guess taking apart proof like sets is like taking apart a Fender Stratocaster and selling it a piece at a time.Anything for money.....
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orfew's Avatar
Canada
1269 Posts
 Posted 10/13/2017  12:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add orfew to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do not deliberately buy slabs. On a few occasions I have bought the slabbed coins because I wanted the coin very much. Those slabs had a very brief but decisive meeting with my hammer. The slabs did not survive the encounter. I collect ancient coins and I like to handle my coins. They have survived for 2000 years-my touching them is not going to hurt them. One of the funniest things I have ever read about this condition mania which has taken over in the field of modern coin collecting was the idea that fingerprints on a coin are like cancer.

What ever happened to collecting coins because you like them. I get as much or more enjoyment from a worn coin of Julius Caesar as some here would from a mint state Morgan. My coin has 2000 years of history behind it. On the other hand you do have a beautiful piece of plastic containing a mass produced coin.

Here is a handful of my coins.





Collecting-Slabbed-Coins-Gone-Overboard
Edited by orfew
10/13/2017 12:32 am
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Canada
822 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2017  06:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TerryT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
FACT; there are different categories for fees for PCGS, as I said. Let's say you send 2 coins of the same year, a G-4 and an MS-60. The G-4 is under $300 so you get the economy; The MS-60 value is over the maximum value for the economy, so you pay more. ERGO you pay more depending on grade. In many cases, the higher the company grades the better for them.

FACT: I will never have an NGC slabbed coin.

FACT: some people do not like the opinions of others and are condescending.

Opinion: Raw coins are the best !! Rawk on !
Edited by TerryT
10/15/2017 06:43 am
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2017  3:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
FACT; there are different categories for fees for PCGS, as I said. Let's say you send 2 coins of the same year, a G-4 and an MS-60. The G-4 is under $300 so you get the economy; The MS-60 value is over the maximum value for the economy, so you pay more. ERGO you pay more depending on grade. In many cases, the higher the company grades the better for them.


The submitter selects the tier, an example as obvious as that is easy for the right tier. The tier is selected and paid for before the grading occurs. Your coins aren't sorted and routed to tiers based on the final grade. You are attempting to make it sound like they give better grades to charge you more which is false and that is a fact
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Earle42's Avatar
United States
10038 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2017  4:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In the early days of slabbing, Americans had a lot of disposable income. Things like pet rocks were actually bought.

While the idea of paying someone to grade your own coins from you was generally seen as ridiculous, it had a following - just like pet rocks, beanie babies etc. And there were many of us back then that were puzzled at all of these situations/services/items.

In fact we laughed, back then, at the gall of someone setting themselves up as being THE experts (I am including my dealer friends) when there were so many people just as experienced. In fact were later soliciting local coin shop owners to be their graders.

As I have posted before, the piecework aspect of the hiring is what made two of my dealer friends quit being graders b/c the claims by the company was nowhere near the reality. They always felt rushed as graders since the more grades they gave per day meant the more they got paid. The did not want their own reputations hurt if this became general knowledge.

The TPGs have been able to grow taking advantage of the psychological need of the human for "an expert." Their marketing plans have also greatly increased their business such as creating a sort of "competition" on their websites to see who can have the nest slabbed set.

I have posted before that two well known dealer friends of mine are totally convinced grading ASEs from monster boxes is a sham. They consistently, as their dealer friends they polled, got a 20% return of MS70s on monster boxes. These same dealers told me to compare the MS70s with MS69s - you can find flawed MS70s without too much problem. Both told me (two dealers, 400 miles apart, and at different times) they are convinced from inspecting what they get back than TPGS just pick a random 20% and slab them as MS70.

When there are JUST enough MS70s on the market, psychologically it can aid people willing to gamble the price of slabbing to see if they can get an MS70.

As I have said many times - if these experts were what they say they are, then the CAC business would have been laughed off the scene as was the attempt a few years ago to make a sticker to check up on CAC (I think it was called the MACAC - its here on CCF someplace).

When the slab business started we used to laugh that some day (this is actually what we said back then this is not pointed at anyone nowadays) people would be foolish enough to grade a system claiming to be able to grade the slabs as to how accurate the graders who slabbed it were.

I have heard it said that the CAC is just a second experts opinion. So why did they waste their time with the first expert if they need a second opinion. The word expert, or professional has become very cheapened by marketing pressure and practices.

The very idea that CACs may or may not be applied to a slab indicates a degree of non-professionalism in the original slabbing system.

And who are the better experts of the CAC to say they can judge the experts of the TPGs anyway?

I the slabbing system had never been dreamed up, we would still be doing what we used to... We would grade something, and if someone did not agree with the grade, they would (here comes accountability which the TPGS refuse to do) discuss why and then adjust the price either way.

No accountability and fuzzy logic/guidelines grow the TPGs.

When:
1. The same coin cracked out and re-slabbed will have the same grade assigned as before - always.
2. The same grade will be assigned to every coin no matter which TPG looks at it.
3. The TPGS are willing to explain exactly why they assign the grade they did per each coin as a typical part of the grading process.
4. Implement the technology that has been available since the 90s to make the above points a reality - especially in the year 2017 where even a phone in our pocket can instantaneously project 30,000 infra red points onto our face and correctly ID (3 dimensionally even!) us as its owner - regardless of wearing glasses, growing a beard/musatche, wearing differet hats, etc.

Then the TPGs will have attained the status they already claim.

The very fact that one companies "we have the best experts" system will not grade a coin the same, consistenly, as another companies "we have the best experts" is exactly why people outside the States are not acepting of TPGs and their systems.

The above points would likely change things. Americans have always been a much more spending society - the marketers know, and take advantage of this.

It is also human nature that when we spend money, we like to believe it has been money well spent. When pet rocks were selling, I never met a person who had one say the money wasted despite the ability to pick the same thing up in their back yard for free.

The more money we invest, the harder it is for us to abandon what we have spent the money on.

Becoming a science would make the TPGs' products scientifically repeatable, proveable, and above all, accountable.

The following is just my opinion - please note that - but I personally feel in the late 90s when the large TPGs were investing in making a computer grading system, they realized that making such a system would surely, and greatly, minimize the growth of their own businesses. There are only so many coins to be slabbed, and if the grade assigned is undeniable, then the "gamble" people are willing to take to get a perfect grade, re-slabbing to attain a higher grade, crossover, etc. profits would not exist.

That also was a day before computers were in everyone's homes. Mainly it was computer geeks who trusted computers - not the general public. It took a few years, a new generation, and the internet to make people see computers as trusted en masse.


If the TPGs were what they claim, there would be no problem embracing the technology to (at last) make grading a factual science (that we have been capable of for more than 20 years now). However, their continuation hinges a lot on non-accountability - so the science likely is not going to be adopted until somehow it is forced on them.

Granted the one area tech *might* not work is on eye appeal - so have a human give a separate note of 1 to 10. Anyone looking at a pic of the slabbed coin assigns their own eye appeal "grade" to it anyway.

The TPGs have killed the base of the hobby in that every coin used to have its own value. Looking up each coin by MM, mintage, and condition was enjoyable. Hardly any coin was categorized by terms such as "junk silver."


Again, I will say if people like to collect slabs, then all the more power to them. Slabs look great lined up together. A hobby is about the fun. So if people like slabs for the aesthetic value and/or fun of collecting them - go for it.


How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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 Posted 10/15/2017  4:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have posted before that two well known dealer friends of mine are totally convinced grading ASEs from monster boxes is a sham. They consistently, as their dealer friends they polled, got a 20% return of MS70s on monster boxes.


You really got to stop posting their myths. One of those sources has apparently tried to sell a fake and there was even at least one thread made about him on this site,
Edited by basebal21
10/15/2017 9:32 pm
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United States
1949 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2017  5:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Sorry to break the news, but it's just not true. And if someone knows about coin shopping abroad... Anyway, we have a coin dealer in Oslo who got a few slabbed Morgans and tried to sell them for double the price of the unslabbed ones, as apparently 'Murica is still his great example of how to coin deal. He literally got laughed out loud in his face for trying to do so. No one here gives a thing about slabbed coins. It's just annoying plastic representing a subjective opinion.
The same goes for Berlin (Germany). I've been there for work a great many times in the last years. None of the dealers had any slabbed coins by American TPGs. None. They just don't care. Using your own eyes and brains is still the way to go. Same goes for The Netherlands, not exactly 'countryside' or 'small towns' as you call it (no 'small towns' or 'countryside' has coin dealers in Europe, by the way). There, slabbed coins go for the same price as unslabbed, as the slab is considered worthless. Knowledge and using your eyes and brain still count here as ways of determining if a coin is genuine or not. And trust me, I know a lot of very, very knowledgeable dealers who I can trust blindly. One of them even started a collection of fake coins as to being able to show and educate customers on how that works.
So I don't know where in Europe you've been, but not at the places I frequently visit (which is literally everywhere), the places where you still buy a coin instead of a piece of plastic.


The idea of slabbed coins has certainly grown in Europe in the last several years. Obviously, it is still the exception to the rule and the vast majority of European collectors still do prefer their coins raw. However, there are many strong buyers of PCGS graded pieces throughout Europe, including some of the nicest international registry sets, and this is a trend I do not foresee shrinking in the future, especially as the quality of counterfeits continue to improve.
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Earle42's Avatar
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10038 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2017  5:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@basebal

Quote:
You really got to stop posting their myths. One of those sources has apparently knowingly sold fakes on several occasions and there was even at least one thread made about him on this site,


Please let me know how you know these men were telling me a myth? If you have talked with these men personally andfound holes in their stories, then I could see, but I don;teven know if I ever have mentioned who they are (I could be wrong).

You obviously have someone in mind since you say they sell fakes on several occassions. I would like to see these also please. I wll not be surprised to find this is amistake and you are confusing the people I talk about with someone else?

One does not even sell on ebay. The one who does has perfect feedback and has a respected ebay business (look for seller oozentoo). The locals here highly respect him as an honest and amiable dealer/friend. He and his family own Antietam Coin Exchange on Canon Ave. in Hagerstown MD. He is also a former, and respected, member of the police force.

The other guy does not sell on ebay. His name is Ray Wasosky. I lost touch with him after the late 80s when I moved out of the area. I got back in touch with him a few years ago after joining CCF. He used to own (ironic name) Certified Coins in 26th St. in Erie, PA. He sold this though (quite awhile ago), and admittedly I don;t remember where he relocated to during those years up until about 2012.

I looked him up b/c I was getting back into the hobby and wanted to know what had transpired since I had been out. I asked him b/c he was always a trusted friend, and his business grew by leaps and bounds b/c of his reputation for being honest with everything on the table.

I can confidently say neither of these men fit the profile of someone who would deliberately try to sell a fake.

The first time I visited the Hagerstown shop I bought a 1932-S Washington. When I got it home, b/c of my newb status and seeing things I had on CCF, I thought maybe the mintmark had been applied. I called him, he said a no questions asked policy was at his store and he would gladly refund the money. He also gave me the number of the NGC slab he had cracked it out of so I could look it up on the Heritage auction site he got it from and verify it had been graded/slabbed as real.

He told me to look at their hi_res pics and carefully compare mine to see it was that exact coin. He also was, by sharing this info with me, showing me what HE had paid for the coin. That made a good impression as to his honesty and integrity. In many dealing with him since, I have experienced the same kind of honesty.

That 1932-S situation is what Rich and I later talking about slabbing. He brought up the ASE 20% concepts a way of showing me just some of his own experiences.

His actions are a far cry from being dishonest with someone you have just met.

BTW - just curious. I have provided information from two knowledgeable, trusted sources who independent of each other, had the same experience not only with the ASEs, but also with having been hired as "professional" grader in their careers.

I humbly ask to know the data you have proving the opposite. I am very willing to be educated with verifiable fact.






How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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MoneyPenney's Avatar
Canada
2984 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2017  6:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MoneyPenney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
One of the funniest things I have ever read about this condition mania which has taken over in the field of modern coin collecting was the idea that fingerprints on a coin are like cancer.


I don't know of too many people who would want a fingerprint on a coin, especially a brand new, just minted, NCLT coin. Fingers leave oil on coins.


Quote:
Sorry to break the news, but it's just not true. And if someone knows about coin shopping abroad... Anyway, we have a coin dealer in Oslo who got a few slabbed Morgans and tried to sell them for double the price of the unslabbed ones, as apparently 'Murica is still his great example of how to coin deal. He literally got laughed out loud in his face for trying to do so. No one here gives a thing about slabbed coins. It's just annoying plastic representing a subjective opinion.


Who cares what European dealers think about slab coins because the biggest market for Canadian and US coins is in North America.


Quote:
I wouldn't get coins slabbed unless I had something exceptional or some sort of major variety/error. To me it's just not worth the cost unless you are gonna flip them and make a tidy profit. It is a nice feature knowing your coin is authentic and to confirm a variety.


Some coins are not worth slabbing. I collect Canadian dollars and what is the point off slabbing common silver dollars because the value of them is close to bullion anyway. On the other hand I would never buy a 1948 Canadian Silver with TPG. Too much risk in getting a fake
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 10/15/2017  9:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
(look for seller oozentoo).


http://goccf.com/t/268047
Edited by basebal21
10/15/2017 9:31 pm
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 Posted 10/15/2017  9:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I humbly ask to know the data you have proving the opposite. I am very willing to be educated with verifiable fact.


There's no set 70 rate for an ASE box as being claimed. Send a bulk submission in with a box of them if you don't believe me. A set rate is one of the myths of grading that has been perpetuated far to long, the only standardization for it is just having numbers on your side with that large of a submission where most will fall within a somewhat standardized range +/- some percentage points given the automated process of making them.
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Earle42's Avatar
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10038 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2017  10:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for this link.

I was curious, so I decided to use the table I got from CCF to check the legitimacy of the cent and the info at the link.

I took genuine obv #4 from the following chart:

Collecting-Slabbed-Coins-Gone-Overboard

I then laid it over the coin from the link above claiming the 90 VDB S was fake. While on my screen I can actively alter the transparency from 1 to 100 and found the only thing to "move" were the line drawn in both pictures. I do not know how to make an animated gif to show what I found, but the date and MM are dead on.


As I said, the added lines are the only difference. The black lines drawn by the person reporting this are not drawn in the same places as the chart uses either. This may be why the one reporting it was confused.

I do not know how to make an animated .gif file for it, so instead I took successive shots of the overlay when increasingly transparent. The pic form the chart is a bit more focused, but the numbers were easy to line up with transparency on when I magnified my screen image to align them.

In the link you posted, the person reporting this said he questioned the seller, who replied he had training as a grader and knew these inside and out. The pictures below support the authenticity of the cent.


Collecting-Slabbed-Coins-Gone-Overboard
Collecting-Slabbed-Coins-Gone-Overboard
Collecting-Slabbed-Coins-Gone-Overboard
Collecting-Slabbed-Coins-Gone-Overboard



Are there more links? The mistake was not the seller in this case as the pictures show.

Please also give me the info you have showing the "20% MS70 ASEs" this guy and the other told me about are a "myth."


How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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