1733 Mexico 8 Reales Mo-Mf Information Wanted

Coinworldtv, are you saying it is the color of the coins that leads you to believe they are fake? Are there features of the strike or features of the details that bother you as well? I ask because after staring at these for a significant period of time, I really can't see any indication of being a counterfeit...strike looks normal, surfaces look normal, shapes look like common late issue Mexican cobs. Color being wrong is an interesting concept to use to determine legit/not legit on a photograph or scan of a coin. What color would you expect these coins to be? I ask because in my collection I have cobs ranging from brilliant silver (salvaged cobs conserved by electrolysis) all the way to pitch black, exactly as they came off the bottom. I don't think color is really a good indicator of regal provenance. I would like for the original poster to give more background on how the seller came to possess these coins just for personal interest. The designation of a "wreck salvaged" coin does not add any value to the coin unless accompanied by a legitimate certificate, no cert, no direct link. All else is conjecture. Conversely, no cert does not mean the coin is a fake either. I have salvaged cobs with no certs that are as real as they get, and these coins trade in the collector market (and the "treasure" market) just fine, though at a somewhat diminished value to a similar coin with legitimate provenance.

jfransch, everything you said... accurate. And, understand, this is from someone who knows his 1733 Fleet material.

John, the one caveat, as you'd know with the 1733 Fleet - different sites (and different stages of salvage) are known for having different levels of preservation/types of conservation... which are sometimes very distinct and identifying. But yeah - toning/"look" can be a nebulous concept and is very hard to use to conclusive proof of forgery (again, as noted, wreck material is sometimes artificially toned if the cleaning strips them bare).



But the ducatons - actually pricier coins than at least a couple of those (4) nondescript cobs - are genuine, right? What, because they have some shmoogm stuck to them, not just color?

LOL... it popped up a few months ago, as I recall, still raw. I think he was asking about $1000, and then I believe he pulled it down after a few days - probably with slabbing it (with ANACS?!) in mind:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MEXICO-173...292763182181

Hello - I am posting what may be either be a Barcelona trinket or a 1733 Royal round klippe!

My hypothesis is that this coin is a Royal round 1733/4 klippe from the Mexico city mint MF. That would mean it was a presentation piece. I have not seen another one like it.


My research found the Mexico mint from 1732-34 did the following production types:
1 cobs (some level planchets of the Klippe technique)
2 Klippes
3 Klippe dies on cob planchets
4 Pillars
5 oddball trial Pillar planchets struck with Klippe dies

Why I think it might be a Royal:

1) The strike for the cross is very strong.

2) It has a unique weight - 5.21 g but is about same size as a 2 reales. I don't think it is an altered 8 reals which was cut down because of its low weight. It is a thinner like a rolled planchet than the cobs but with the Klippe dies.

3) It has the same central images of the 8 reales 1733 klippe but is on a flat planchet.

4) The mint is clearly Mexico city M F assayer which made royal coins that year.

5) The lip around the coin was recessed and done professionally and has gold remaining from what appears to be the remainder of a border of real gold inlay. There is very small piece of a remaining loop as if it were to be worn. I can't see gold being used for cast copy or a mint test.

6) It is round!

But... does the surface of the coin and die break could mean that it could be a token or commemorative?

It is tough from photos but do you think it's real, a round Klippe or a Royal?

It has been fun researching but now I need to put it out tpo the real pros! Thanks for your help.
cheers, Bill

Thank you for the reply.
Yes, the coin with the gold edging seems to be a medallion.
The 1769 seems to be silver but I cancelled the listing.
Thanks, Bill

Realeswatcher
Going back to your post of 2/15/18 You are absolutely correct that the different groups that salvage the 1715 and 1733 wrecks all have different methods of "conserving" the coins. Color and appearance can be all over the map.
When you find a 1733 that looks like the one below there is a 90+% chance it was salvaged by Stefan Sekora from the Coffins Patch wreck, an unidentified ship that was carrying a large quantity of freshly minted 1733 coins. Stefan was not diving under the Real Eight license or under the eventual Fisher licenses, he had his own license/permit for the Coffins Patch area until the courts closed the area to salvage due to a nasty lawsuit between two dive groups. Stefan conserved each coin carefully, one at a time using electrolysis and his coins all have this look (until dealers artificially tone them down.



On the flip side, here are a pair of 8s that are 5 minutes off the bottom on the site of the Nieves wreck off what was called on my old, old maps "Colored Beach" in the Fort Pierce area. These are 1715 fleet finds straight off the bottom, no conservation of any kind.


So here we have a color spectrum from black to blast white, and I have seen everything in between. Color is not the best indicator of real or fake, you need to look at the design elements and the way the way the coin was made.

Realeswatcher
I have always liked this one where half the coin looks like undamaged uncirculated and the other half has the invasive salt water corrosion