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 Replies: 32 / Views: 6,238 |
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New Member
United States
10 Posts |
I just began collecting coins again and plan to spend around 50 thousand or so in the next year on mostly pillar dollars if possible. I've been studying coin patterns as best I can, but was wondering if anyone has any tips for detecting fakes in early to mid-1700s pillar dollars.
Edited by Shammalamma
11/07/2017 9:03 pm
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Moderator
 United States
189340 Posts |
 to the Community! Your post was moved to the appropriate forum for the proper attention.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
24885 Posts |
To the Forum. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1494 Posts |
to the forum, Shammalamma! |
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Moderator
United States
34427 Posts |
@SL, first welcome to CCF. I think that joining this coin community is probably a great first step. If you have lurked here for very long then you know we have some of the worldwide experts on this series as members. You should use the search function to look at old threads and familiarize yourself with the good, the bad, and the ugly. Also, our own @sawmperbob's book should be familar to you also: https://www.amazon.com/dp/099080290...glnkc3605-20Finally, unless you are buying slabbed coins from reputable dealers (and probably even then if you are serious anout dropping $50K), you probably should also invest in some good analytical equipment or at least become good friends with your LCS who has this stuff (e.g. laboratory balance and XRF). This is not a series with which I have much personal experience, but it seems like knowing the trace elements in the coins can really help with determining the time period and actual location of their manufacture. I'm sure others will weigh in on this subject as well. "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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New Member
 United States
10 Posts |
Thank you for the response. That book looks like it will help a great deal for portrait ones at least. I guess I didn't realize people made books specifically for this concern.
I did buy a laboratory balance this week already. Looking forward to getting it to weigh what I have already. I've looked into XRF analysis and may consider getting one more now. Hopefully, I can find a deal on a used one.
Edited by Shammalamma
11/08/2017 11:13 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
There is no "best way" (in terms of any easy litmus test) to spot the fakes that are decently capable of fooling.
Learn what legit material is supposed to be... and work from there.
Or, stick to bulletproof sources (known expert dealers, certified material).
Go to Baltimore the next few days and see some in hand!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
The best reference for pillar dollars is Gilboy. It is out of print so it will likely cost about as much as a VF pillar dollar to acquire. You should also reference a price guide. I use the one at NGC. |
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New Member
49 Posts |
I THINK WERE MISSING THE POINT. Is this a new collector that is heading down a VERY specialized path? Is this a collector that has experience with coinage that is not well documented and loves the challenge? Is He B/S?
What was your focus before? Talk is in-expensive so what's your background? To advise you on such a specialized endeavor without background could cost you THOUSANDS (you've already purchased laboratory equipment) and I believe would be against the intention of this blog
Edited by Reeds253
11/08/2017 12:38 pm
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Moderator
United States
34427 Posts |
@reeds253, for sure that sounds to me like a lot to spend in this area; however, without information to the contrary, I am will to take the OP at his/her word. Reasonable questions were asked and several folks have provided our best advice. This is not my specific area of expertise, but I think that I made this clear in my response. @realswatcher and @jgenn are much more accomplished in this field and do not need this disclaimer. As to the intention of CCF, perhaps a review of our motto would be useful: Quote:
Education is the key to collector success. I would be interested to see what would be your advice be to the OP. "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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New Member
United States
10 Posts |
I am just getting back to collecting as a means to protect assets really. I have most of my money invested in accounts and wanted some tangible investments as well. I decided on coins. My concern stems from a couple purchases I made. One locally and one online. Both are from dealers. The pillars are positioned differently from each other and so are the Mexico City markings. The one on the right is the ebay one. My concern is that it might be a fake unless those differences are normal.    Edited by Shammalamma
11/08/2017 8:38 pm
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New Member
United States
10 Posts |
Bonus picture. I just purchased this locally too. This is my first 8 escudo coin. Got it for $1350. It isn't actually darker on the left side. That is just bad lighting.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
STOP! Return these and get your money back ASAP.
No wonder you ask about spotting fakes. These are near the bottom end of collectible grade IF they are genuine. You say you have the resources to invest yet it looks like you only care about the precious metal content.
I have many examples in this shape in my collection and I know I will not get my money back when I go to sell them. If you want a chance to reclaim your investment you really need to buy the eye-appeal worthy, high grade, certified ones. You can even research their sales history on Heritage and Stack's Bowers.
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New Member
United States
10 Posts |
Well, the bad coin was only $125 locally. I bought it today along with the gold coin. I am not buying them for the precious metal content at all. I already purchased $6000 in silver rounds from APMEX last week. I don't plan to buy more silver bullion. I don't really plan to sell my investment at any point ever unless I absolutely need to. I really enjoyed collecting coins as a kid and wanted to use diversifying my investments as an excuse to start it up again. The one I may return because of the uncertainty is the pillar dollar on the right. They accept returns if it is "not as described". Here is the link to where I purchased it on ebay. It has much better pictures. Seems like a good seller. It also included a little purple felt container for the coin with information on the shipwreck. From what I have found, these were sold decades ago in these little purple felt containers originally. https://www.ebay.com/itm/MEXICO-174...182791649852Edited by Shammalamma
11/08/2017 9:41 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
The huge problem with "shipwreck" coins is that they are damaged in a way that makes authenticating them very difficult. I suggest you steer away from uncertified shipwreck coins. There are plenty of certified and encapsulated ones that will be more likely to be genuine and retain their value.
Regarding, the small differences in the position of the mintmarks and other design elements, these are not made from hubbed dies where you would expect all elements to be positioned exactly the same way. Each die was created by hand so small variations are the norm and due to the volume of coins produced, many dies were needed per year.
That being said, I haven't examined the details too closely but what stands out to me is that I really don't like the look of the edge design on the rightmost 1740 pillar dollar.
Edited by jgenn
11/08/2017 10:43 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I agree with Jgenn about the rightmost 1740 - rather unlikely to be genuine. The 1740 is an extremely common numismatic forgery even being struck in genuine silver. Most are made in the orient. I hate to point at China alone. Malaysia, Philippines, Sumatra, Singapore and other locales are sources as well. In this case, the seller says Rygersdahl Wreck - did you get an original signed certificate with photographic proof it is the same piece?
One caution about certification, it is no guarantee with a shipwreck coin. I am aware of counterfeit 8Rs being recovered from shipwrecks. In one case, unpublished so far, an entire shipment of 8Rs were traced back to Boston. That much I am 100% certain about. I believe that in most cases a shipwreck COUNTERFEIT is even more rare than a genuine coin from a shipwreck. Coins taken from circulation for shipment on a vessel likely contained between 1 and 10 counterfeits for every 100 coins.
I do not believe any of the TPGs are checking salvaged coins for Contemporary Counterfeits. They are more concerned with proof the coin came from the shipwreck than whether or not it is genuine.
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Replies: 32 / Views: 6,238 |
Posted 11/08/2017 12:08 am
