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 Replies: 17 / Views: 4,952 |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
599 Posts |
From the NGC website: "Transfer Die Counterfeits have become increasingly commonplace in the last few decades. Unfortunately, this type of fake can also be the most deceptive. A genuine coin is "sacrificed" to create a die that is an exact mirror image of the coin. This includes any and all marks, scratches or other issues on the surface of the genuine coin. As a result, every fake struck from these counterfeit dies will have the same depressions"  This is a Transfer Die Counterfeit. It was sent to PCGS who identified it. Otherwise I'd be none the wiser. Note the unusual "extra" rim especially under MP of IMP on the obverse. Similar rim issues can be seen on many of these fakes. Also note the obverse marks - under D of DG on the obverse. The exact same marks can be seen on other 1911 pennies from the same batch. And I've seen a few of these around for sale. Sadly & ironically some are NGC graded, despite their knowledge. DON'T BUY THEM. If there is sufficient interest I'll post some more pics of other examples. Watch your top knot
Edited by echidna
03/03/2018 06:19 am
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
Hi. Interesting coin. Here is a partial photo of a 1911 Australia penny reverse.  Is this a transfer die counterfeit or does that rim seem okay? |
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Pillar of the Community
 Australia
599 Posts |
need the whole image especially the obverse
Watch your top knot
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Formerly nancyc
Australia
5385 Posts |
Quote:
If there is sufficient interest I'll post some more pics of other examples.  The more images of counterfeits that are available to be studied by collectors, the better. Especially images that come with detailed explanations of what to look for. life is a mystery to be lived not a problem to be solved
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2180 Posts |
That's worrying.
Is the weight right?
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
599 Posts |
weight is 9.42g
Watch your top knot
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
Quote:
weight is 9.42g Genuine weight is 9.45g 0.317965% coin mass difference. That is one part in 315 overall or about 1/30 of a gram. Australian copper coins are Bronze: Cu 97.5%, Zn 2.0%, Sn 0.5% Zinc and Tin are both lighter than Copper, and thus it reasonably follows that a pure Copper fake from China should be a bit heavier, unless China are using an admiralty metal alloy very close to that used by mints. All but one of the fake Chinese pennies I have looked at are between 1-4% heavier. Your coin does not resemble what I have seen before from China. One of their current efforts is pictured here:  That is unconvincing and is spotted instantly - yours is not. Quote:
If there is sufficient interest I'll post some more pics of other examples. That'd be good. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
599 Posts |
  Apologies for the poor quality image. Its fake according to experts. Weight is 9.65g. Unusual bright pink colouring. Bought from the same source as the 1911 penny. A seller based in Canada. Watch your top knot
Edited by echidna
03/04/2018 12:18 am
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
599 Posts |
Some more info:
Control - a genuine penny
96.9% Cu
2.97% Zn
1911 forgery
98.25% Cu
0.52% Zn
0.99$ Fe
1936 forgery
98.7% Cu
1.17% Zn
Watch your top knot
Edited by echidna
03/04/2018 12:28 am
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
That fake 1911 is believable.
(if it's fake)
Edited by CoinOS
03/04/2018 10:43 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1963 Posts |
Wow. That coin actually looks really convincing.
Edited by coin197
03/04/2018 02:02 am
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
The OP coin is PERFECT (except for that extra rim at the bottom of the obverse). The '36 penny has no rim problem at the bottom, so if they mate that obverse with the OP reverse and use the decent coloured blanks then they are 100% there in making undetectable fakes.
BTW the weights of genuine pennies do vary and the alloy mix for Imperial Bronze was changed on several occasions (such as when our mints were directed by London to change the composition in 1921). Also they never achieved top quality in making the alloy at the mints so the fakers can get away with imperfect alloys (look at the streaked and wood grained genuine pennies as examples of poor alloy mixing).
Echidna, can you name the seller in Canada?
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
599 Posts |
"Echidna, can you name the seller in Canada?"
Not sure if I can name directly here on this forum.
Will PM.
Watch your top knot
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
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the weights of genuine pennies do vary and the alloy mix for Imperial Bronze was changed on several occasions (such as when our mints were directed by London to change the composition in 1921). I learn something every day. I wonder how much it varied. The Sn [Tin] is 0.5% which isn't much, but it is there for a reason. Edited by CoinOS
03/04/2018 07:07 am
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
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OP coin is PERFECT The diamond on the Crown is a bit mangled, but it's pretty good. Here it is (left) compared to a known good one.  I could have cropped the left image so the coins are the same size, but I cannot be bothered. At a quick glance there, I'm looking at a fake Rolex alongside a real one, but in fairness the two images are not of the same quality. Edited by CoinOS
03/04/2018 10:44 pm
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
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sent to PCGS who identified it. Is the PCGS info available to see? Who is the seller? |
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Replies: 17 / Views: 4,952 |
Posted 03/03/2018 06:15 am
