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Sumatra Vs. Netherlands East Indies

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United States
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 Posted 03/24/2018  10:56 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add bjherbison to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
When I look at numismaster.com and numista.com, NEI types KM# 279-291 are identified as being issues of Sumatra. Is there a reason they shouldn't instead be considered issues of Netherlands East Indies?

In the SCWC there is a break before those issues saying "Kingdom of the Netherlands". numismaster.com and numista.com seem to consider this a minor break, but I think it should be a major break.

Looking at Craig, the issues seem to be considered from NEI.

The first set of coins in this section say INDIAE BATAV, and Batavia (now Jakarta) is on Java, not Sumatra. Later issues say NEDERL INDIE.

The higher denomination coins (listed separately in SCWC) are already considered NEI coins.

(For extra credit, explain where the Singapore Merchant Tokens should be cataloged. There are multiple sections with overlapping catalog numbers.)
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992 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2018  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paxbrit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There was a revolt and an independent Sultanate on Sumatra, and of course the British Sumatra coinage from their brief periods of ownership.

The Singapore tokens should be catalogued under Singapore and Straits Settlements, they were in use throughout SE Asia, including the Indies. Ideally, an entirely new nomenclature should be used, which is 'British East Indies', including all the Straits, Singapore, Malaya, Sumatra, Kuching, Labuan, all of them.
Edited by paxbrit
03/24/2018 11:59 am
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United States
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 Posted 03/24/2018  12:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bjherbison to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the response.

Are you saying there was an independent Sultanate on Sumatra that issued coins with the name of a city on Java? That seems very strange.

Where can I read about the history of this revolt, especially the numismatic aspects? I found the Wikipedia article for the Padri War, but it didn't say much and didn't suggest to me coins would have been issued for Sumatra in that time period.
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United States
257 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2018  1:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bjherbison to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I looked at the mints for the coins on numismaster.com. The listed mints were: Amsterdam, Utrecht, Surabaya (city on Java), Sourabaya (possibly a typo for Sourabaya, but listed for several types), and "(o)".

If the mints are correct that doesn't look like coins issued by a Sultanate fighting the Dutch.
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Belgium
651 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2018  1:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The legend INDIAE BATAVORUM, is referring to Indonesia as the "Indies of the Batavian Republic". The Batavian Republic was the name of the Netherlands from 1796 tp 1801, supported by French troups. It became a kingdom when Louis Napoleon, a brother of the emperor Napoleon Bonaparte, ascended the throne of the kingdom of Holland.

Batavia itself was named after the Batavia tribe, a Germanic tribe that lived in the Netherlands during Roman times, and so was also the Batavian Republic.
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Australia
16837 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2018  7:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Prior to 1795, the Netherlands was known as the "Dutch Republic", a fairly loose confederation of seven provinces. "Loose" in numismatic terms because each province was allowed to commission its own separate coinage, though the coins were interchangeable within the Republic (much like the coins of the modern European Union). Thus, there was no "unified Dutch coinage" prior to 1795.

Coins of the VOC (Dutch United East India Company) were issued in the name of the Company, which was structurally separate from the federal and provincial governments of the Netherlands, though the issuing mints of the coins placed their provincial coats of arms on the reverses. Some Sultanates under Company "Protection" issued coinages in their own name.

The old Republic was terminated by popular revolt with the support of French revolutionary troops, who founded the unitary (non-Federal) Batavian Republic and nationalized the Company; Company territory became colonies of the Batavian Republic.

The Netherlands became the "Kingdom of Holland" when Napoleon unilaterally appointed his brother Louis to be their king. This "Holland" is different to the old Province of Holland, as it incorporated all seven provinces. The remaining Asian territories were now nominally colonies of the Kingdom, though most had been annexed by the British by this time; I believe only the coins of Java bear the Napoleonic monogram.

In 1810, Napoleon of France got fed up with his brother's recalcitrance (much to everyone's surprise, King Louis refused to be his brother's minion and insisted that his country was actually independent) and formally annexed the Netherlands to France. By this time, the French navy had virtually ceased to exist and Britain effectively controlled all the former Dutch and French colonies.

After Napoleon's defeat, the Netherlands was reconstituted as a Kingdom and unified with the old Austrian Netherlands (mostly modern-day Belgium), with the house of Orange (who had been the hereditary Staadtholders of the old Republic) proclaimed the new kings; apart from the secession of Belgium and the Nazi occupation, the situation has remained the same up to today. Many of the former colonies were restored to them, including the Netherlands East Indies.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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United States
257 Posts
 Posted 03/26/2018  07:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bjherbison to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coins I'm referring to were issued 1814 and later with the arms of the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

I don't know why INDIAE BATAV was chosen as the legend, but possibly because the name was known in the region. These are not coins of the Batavian Republic.
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