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1971 And 1972 LMC DDO?

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 7 / Views: 1,152Next Topic  
Valued Member
03krafty's Avatar
United States
52 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2008  12:52 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add 03krafty to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I found these in rolls, I'm not experienced enough to know the difference between a genuine DD and Machine Doubling. What do ya'll

Image: 1971-And-1972-LMC-DDO? 1971DDO1.jpg
93.3 KB

Image: 1971-And-1972-LMC-DDO? 1971DDO2.jpg
95.03 KB

Image: 1971-And-1972-LMC-DDO? 1972DDO3.jpg
96.32 KB

Image: 1971-And-1972-LMC-DDO? 1972DDO.jpg
98.67 KB

Image: 1971-And-1972-LMC-DDO? 1972DDO2.jpg
101.28 KB think?
Valued Member
seattleMD's Avatar
United States
405 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2008  01:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seattleMD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe both are either Die Deterioration Doubling or Machine Doubling, though I'm not sure which I'm pretty positive it's not a doubled die.
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foundinrolls's Avatar
United States
3507 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2008  02:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,

Machine Doubling on both.

Thanks,
Bill

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03krafty's Avatar
United States
52 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2008  02:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 03krafty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you! Can you help me to tell the difference between Machine Doubling and an actual doubled die? I know it's been discussed on here and people say something about a separation, but what does that mean?
Valued Member
madzdad71's Avatar
United States
377 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2008  05:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add madzdad71 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Krafty,
Give this site a shot,
http://www.lincolncentresource.com/...bledies.html

With MD's, the "Doubling" looks like the underneath was smashed flat under the numbers and letters. There is not seperation between them

With "DD's", you will see the actual separation between the 2 digits. Some are really hard to tell the difference between, that's why I come here.

Good Luck,
Bill
Valued Member
seattleMD's Avatar
United States
405 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2008  3:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seattleMD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bill - how to tell the difference between deterioration doubling and Machine Doubling, or does the later encompass the prior?
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coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2008  4:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Die deterioriation doubling happens because of die wear. Die wear shows on the coin as heavy flow lines, soft or missing outer edges to devices, and an overall softness to the design - no thin, sharp edges as would be expected on a 'new' coin from a 'new' die. The doubling occurs like snow drifts. Pressure and metal movement cause the molecules of steel to bunch up along the outer edges of devices near the rim, effectively causing a doubling effect. There's no 'real' doubling at all in Die Deterioration Doubling - it's just how the metal moved, and is very easy to spot.

Machine Doubling is a simple case of dies bouncing when they hit coins. It has nothing to do with die wear, thus can be observed on any die state. It actually flattens an edge of each letter where the die moved slightly during the strike, so in effect the letters are thinner than they should be because part of them is flattened. The flattened area is the 'doubling' and is lower in relief, yet not low enough to be flattened to the field. So the 'shelf' effect often mentioned is noting the fact that the normal relief of the letters is higher than the 'doubling', yet the 'doubling' is higher than the fields...a stair-step or shelf appearance. The edges of this form of doubling are always sharp, sometimes appearing sharp enough to cut something under magnification.

So the basic differences in appearance between the two are so different they are like night and day. Die Deterioration Doubling is soft like the deisgn melted a bit, fattens everything toward the rim by lifting the field around them...actually it chips away at the field, only on the die...which effectively lifts the field on the coin (opposites, remember). Machine Doubling sharply flattens parts of the letters which makes them look like doubling.
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seattleMD's Avatar
United States
405 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2008  5:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seattleMD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Chuck - in a previous thread I saw a coin that showed the effects corresponding to your Machine Doubling description, but you (and others) identified it instead as Die Deterioration. The devices (date and LIBERTY) kooked sharp and the doubling looked flat. What am I missing?

https://goccf.com/t/31102
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