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 Replies: 15 / Views: 2,334 |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1333 Posts |
 Okay to me the thing just looks like a blatant fake, what gets me is am I wrong cause there are bids? I thought that most sovereign and half sovereign either reddish hue gold or a more brilliant, due to alloy with copper or silver. Not this neon yellow colour, am I wrong? Edited by ryurazu
04/30/2018 04:13 am
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
Rough field and lack of detail suggests cast fake.
It may be of fairly high purity gold, but almost certainly less than 22 ct (.9167 fine).
Should weigh 3.994 grams, and have a diameter of 19mm.
Fake sovereigns and halves used to be reasonably common in the Middle East a century ago, and were occasionally accepted in payment, provided that the gold was of high purity.
The rich gold color suggests that it may have a pure gold (or close to) plating, in which case, XRF testing would be of little use.
I would be happy to have it in my 'black' collection, but only if the weight was very close to 4 grams, and the diameter and thickness was OK, but I would need to check dimensions with a micrometer screw gauge.
I maintain a 'black' collection for my own education.
Edited by sel_69l
04/30/2018 10:12 am
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
541 Posts |
Nope - I'd get the gold content tested too, colour looks off.
A lot of fake sovereigns were made when the UK banned gold exports so many fakes were made with their full gold content but this is not true with all examples.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5239 Posts |
The colour may just be due to the photograph. But I agree that it looks off.
I would never get gold unless I knew the seller or had the item in hand.
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Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts |
I'd not buy or bid on this one, myself.
I believe your skepticism is well founded.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
536 Posts |
Just because there are other bids on something, does not mean it's ok. If those other bidders jumped off a cliff, would you?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
992 Posts |
Totally bogus appearance, to me, looks cast. Don't bid or buy.
You're right, if I recall, the South African sovereigns have a reddish cast to them, and the Digger ones are also distinctive, regardless of the mint marks.
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
sel_69l Quote:
it may have a pure gold (or close to) plating, in which case, XRF testing would be of little use.
Why of little use? X-Ray Fluorescence accurately reports the composition / overall purity. XRF will instantly discriminate between gold and gold-plated. |
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New Member
Thailand
2 Posts |
It is also worth noting that these fakes are offered by people who are not so stupid. It doesn't take much to get a few fake bids in so that it appears genuine.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
The X-Rays in XRF do not penetrate deeply into the surface of the coin.
As a consequence, XRF can only tell you about what elements are in the coin's surface. If a coin is plated or clad, you will only get information on the plating or cladding.
XRF can only report on overall composition or purity, if the composition of the coin is homogeneous, that is, if it is not plated.
Exact diameter, weight and thickness very important in this case. Even so, it is common to find Middle East sourced forgeries of Sovereigns and Half sovereigns in gold with a purity as high as 20ct fine.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
665 Posts |
Sovereigns are 22K gold. This translates to 91.7% gold. The remaining 8.3% is copper which is the reason that the Sovereign has a reddish hue vs. Canadian gold $100 from 1977-1986 were also 22K but the 8.3% alloy is silver. The Canadian gold 22K is much yellower than the Sovereign and more closely matches the colour in the picture above.
I agree that the fields on this coin are too rough to believe that it was properly minted.
I flew through Dubai a couple of years ago and at the time I was on the hunt for a 1905 London mint Sovereign. There were tens of these in the Duty Free shop in the airport, all with correct dates & mintmarks except for similar hue and weak details... though they were very shiny and bright (too shiny). They were being sold for a reasonable price (Bullion+). Another concern was that they had a number of 1917 London Mint Sovereigns for bullion+ prices. The 1917 London Sovereign is extremely rare and commands thousands of pounds even in F/VF condition; Coincraft lists the coin as "virtually unavailable". When I asked if they were authentic, I was told that they were truly 22K but an upgrade since the alloy was Silver, not Copper this justifying the colour difference. None of the coins were counterstamped with an indicator that would allow you to see it was not authentic ("copy", "22K", mintmark or whatever), when asked, the counter sales agent told the truth but if I hadn't asked... I didn't weigh the coin but was told it was legitimate weight and I had no reason to dispute that. Needless to say, I didn't buy but I can imagine a number of people who have purchased these in good faith being disappointed that the coin was not authentic. Especially since the seller was a legitimate Duty Free shop in a large international airport.
In the case of the Dubai duty free coins, they were legitimate alloys but not authentic coins. I can imagine having an issue selling them as who would believe that the alloy was legitimate given the coin wasn't.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
@ vonigochcr: This story does not surprise me in the least. Bullion gold is big business in Dubai. What does bother me (as with yourself), is that they are making 22ct 1917 dated London Sovereigns (with 2ct of silver), and selling them as bullion coins, which they are. The problem is that you have to ask if they are copies, then they will truthfully tell you that is the case. These coins will then find find their way (via tourists' pockets) into the hands of inexperienced collectors who have not done due diligence to satisfy themselves about their authenticity. From the Dubai bullion dealers point of view, they are doing nothing wrong, provided such coins are of correct weight and fineness. Nevertheless, THEY ARE FAKES!!  (=dishonest dealing). Early Australian gold up to until 1868 was also struck in 22ct gold with 2ct of silver. Although I am an experienced collector, I never buy coins for my collection when I am traveling. This one of a number of reasons why. BTW, I am visiting Dubai for the 4th time, in a few weeks time. Edited by sel_69l
05/28/2018 7:55 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
665 Posts |
@sel_69l
Enjoy your trip to the Emirates and maybe add a coin or two to your "Black" collection.
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
Quote:
XRF can only report on overall composition or purity, if the composition of the coin is homogeneous, that is, if it is not plated. First I have to ask if you have ever been in the same room as an XRF. Second, both XRF's I have seen had a plating detect feature - and it works. Third, all the emphasis and underlining and bold is annoying. Just say your piece minus the theater. I left this thing for a month after learning that a 1911 shilling I had was in fact real and the entire 'expert' Au coin community was wrong - but I have other battles to fight... and cheerio Edited by CoinOS
05/29/2018 1:44 pm
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Forum Dad
 United States
24150 Posts |
Quote:
XRF will instantly discriminate between gold and gold-plated. Depends on the machine and the thickness of the plating. A guy selling portables at the FUN show showed me a cut in half gold thickly plated tungsten Chinese bar that read gold all day long on the plating. This was a 17K handheld machine. Quote:
First I have to ask if you have ever been in the same room as an XRF. If you're going to act like a jerk, at least be right. |
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Moderator
Canada
10456 Posts |
Quote:
First I have to ask if you have ever been in the same room as an XRF. Why, yes I have. There is a powerful one in my research lab. Quote:
XRF will instantly discriminate between gold and gold-plated. Bobby is correct. It also depends on the density of the surface material... penetration depth of gold is low by XRF, relative to other metals. It can penetrate thin gold plating, but thicker plating or cladding requires other methods. This plot is only penetration depths, it does not account for the escape depth necessary for the resultant X-Ray emitted to reach back the detector (since most hand-held and bench-top instruments have the beam source and detector in the same spot).  "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Replies: 15 / Views: 2,334 |
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Posted 04/30/2018 06:25 am
