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 Replies: 15 / Views: 2,645 |
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New Member
United States
6 Posts |
I just got Robert's Counterfeit Portrait Eight Reales book. To my dismay, it looks like my entire 8 R coin collection is made up of counterfeits (there's only one I have in question, and might be authentic). They're all silver, all have the right weight (on the lower side), all with very accurate details, most were purchased from what seemed to be reputable dealers, but they did't pass Bob's scrutiny. Now that I'm a bit more educated I'm finding counterfeits EVERYWHERE (it's like one of those horror movies) without even looking at the sides, and with low resolution pictures, just by looking at the dentils on the edge, many coins on Vcoins, collectors, even slabbed coins, not to even mention highly reviewed sellers on ebay, many coins seem suspicious at the least. So then... who can we, the uneducated, trust! ( After this experience, I started to freak out about my entire Ancient Greek and Roman collection. Where to find a dealer to trust? Where can I buy 8 reales coins trusting that I won't end up returning the coin (which, living in Mexico, can be quite a hazle).  And another question ( although I guess I'll find the answer further ahead in Bob's book) how can I tell if the coins are Class 2 or Class 3? I'll try to calculate my 8 R SG today, just to have more evidence to justify my current numismatic depression Edited by Gerguem
05/01/2018 10:11 am
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Valued Member
United States
420 Posts |
Check out sites having to do with Mel Fisher..
Can't remember what the link rule is here, but mel fisher dot com should get you started.. They have a couple associated sites that don't include his name as well..
EDIT: This is to get you to photos for comparison, but I believe they sell them and other items too. Don't know a thing about their pricing though..
Swamp
Edited by da Swampster
05/01/2018 11:26 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1475 Posts |
Below is a worthy article to read from NGC. https://www.NGCcoin.com/boards/topi...ut-8-reales/I once considered starting a collection of 8 Reales, but decided not to dive in. You really have to be an EXPERT with years of study in order to distinguish real coins to counterfeits. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts |
I've been tempted at shows many times.
But it's a lot like $5 Indians. If you don't know the series you have a good chance of walking off the cliff.
Frank Robinson of New York (a retired judge), is a great source for world, ancients, medieval, and Chinese cash.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
Quote:
Below is a worthy article to read from NGC. Just to be clear, that's one of my journal posts from the NGC forums and not an official NGC article. Quote:
Where to find a dealer to trust? Most dealers don't know about Bob Gurney's/swamperbob's checklist for suspicious details and they will readily accept class 2 as genuine. Before you buy ask for the weight and ask for pictures showing the complete edge. I'm not sure you could get a dealer to calculate the specific gravity for you. However, they might have access to a hand held XRF and it might be accurate enough to detect 0.1 - 1.0% gold content (assuming Mexico origin). |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
I assume from your posts you are referring to Milled 8 reales and not cobs, i.e. Pillars and Portraits. If you can make it to the United States Mexican Numismatic Association convention in Scottsdale AZ in October, you will finds hundreds, if not thousands of 8 reales for sale. A large number of top rated dealers are there and the classes/lectures they hold are really top notch. Probably the most popular one is the counterfeit seminar held each year hosted by Mike Dunigan, Dan Sedwick and Kent Ponterio. Swamperbob gave a presentation there when his book came out and it was quite lively. Not all collectors agree 100% with Bob's theories, though I think he makes a good case for his ideas. Don't give up on collecting the 8s, it is a learning experience and there are people here on the forum happy to help when they can. But I think some good rules for a beginner would be look at and study a large number of coins before you start buying and don't buy off ebay from Chinese sellers. Nothing against China in general, just seems a large number of high end fakes show up with Chinese sellers so the odds aren't that good for the American consumer. |
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
I have to admit:
If I was to consider buying I would have to both
A) examine in hand with a magnifying glass
B) buy from a auctioneer or a dealer who has a reputation of international standing.
After reading all of Swamperbobs' posts I know I have to be quite circumspect about the purchase of a genuine example of this historically important coinage series.
I have a shipwreck 8R cob from a Western Australian wreck.
I also have Ferdinand V11 pillar dollar of Postsi, that had been one of a group that had been in the possession of a missionary, who had spent most of his life in Bolivia. I kept one of them, and sold the rest on instruction to an auctioneer of international reputation (Noble Numismatics Sydney).
Edited by sel_69l
05/01/2018 7:02 pm
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New Member
United States
37 Posts |
Not everyone agrees with what is counterfeit and what isn't when it comes to 8R coins. At the very least, by buying slabbed coins, they have the opinion of a professional TPG attached and thus "market acceptable", retaining their value even in the case of questionable authenticity by some. There are some obvious tell-tale signs to counterfeit 8R, but some have been so well replicated that it's essentially impossible via a photograph. |
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Valued Member
United States
93 Posts |
I wouldn't trust TPG to get it right. The experts here have proven them wrong many times on slabbed 8 Reales. And proven them wrong via pictures of them in slabs and not even had to have them in their hands! From what I've read here on CCF, the top two - PCGS and NGC - don't even weigh them? No SG tests for sure if they are not even weighing them. And from reading previous posts here, it is very hard to distinguish "restrikes" that are in all appearances exactly like the real McCoy. XRF is an excellent tool and it would be a big improvement for PCGS OR NGC to start including XRF data on 8 Reales they slab. They are getting paid very well for their work, why not try and get it right? With everything I've found out on this forum, I will continue to stay away from Pillars and Portraits because of the reasons stated. A shame, but not worth the risk and can't count on the big TPG companies either. |
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New Member
United States
37 Posts |
Just to clarify, I wasn't implying that TPGs get it right (especially with this series); I'm merely pointing out that a coin in a TPG instantly (and unfortunately) becomes "market acceptable" in the eyes of many collectors, hence additional safety in purchasing. Unless, of course, the coin doesn't pass the most basic of visual checks. It's still up to the buyer to determine whether or not a slabbed coin is authentic, as with all coins. All I'm saying is that an 8R in a holder may never be thoroughly tested as need be for authenticity; it may appear authentic upon visual inspection, but the truth will never be known for sure. Edited by doges
05/01/2018 10:22 pm
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New Member
 United States
6 Posts |
Thank you so much everybody for sharing your thoughts. I perhaps, maybe, feel a little bit better.
So, which other coins, series or countries should a newbie stay away from collecting due to widespread counterfeiting?
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
I will have a look at the Roberts and Gurney references in the library of Noble Numismatics in Sydney, and get advice on which is the best reference, and to consider getting a copy.
IF they are obtainable, Noble Numismatics should be able to get a copy for me.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
8 reales are a fascinating series to collect and study. Just realize you need to learn a bit, study a bit, view a lot of coins and be patient. This is not a series that can be collected in 2 weeks with no knowledge and just deep pockets without risking ending up with some coins that are not what they seem to be. Don't get scared off before you even get started.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
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So, which other coins, series or countries should a newbie stay away from collecting due to widespread counterfeiting? Rather predictably, modern counterfeits of Chinese dollars (yuan) outnumber the genuine article by a ratio of like 1,000,000:1 or thereabouts. Flowing hair U.S. dollars are another genre for which we continually see phonies posted here. The sad thing is that the manufacture of numismatic forgeries in China is nowadays carried out on a truly industrial scale, and many obscure issues for which you'd think there'd be a very thin market have come to be included in these nefarious wares. Given how sales via the internet facilitates their worldwide distribution, all collectors everywhere almost have to be hypervigilant about virtually everything, certified or not. Colligo ergo sum
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Don't get discouraged - 8 Reales is a historically significant, fun and rewarding area of numismatics. If you're concerned with counterfeits, as you should, you can start slowly referencing inexpensive examples in lower grades (sub $50) against information on this forum and in CCF literature until you get a good hang of it. Also, while it's true that there are a number of certified counterfeits out there, TPG's do get it right most of the time (unless it's Class 2's, as jgenn mentioned, but most dealers and collectors would consider them market acceptable). |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8715 Posts |
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So, which other coins, series or countries should a newbie stay away from collecting due to widespread counterfeiting? I don't know about world coins, but as for US coins, any raw Flowing Hair or Draped Bust coins that are raw, pre-1933 US Gold coins, any key date or proof Classic coins in general. However, I don't mean that everyone should stay away from collecting these coins raw. A member recently posted photos of his Draped Bust coin for grading, and it turned out to be real. However, I would recommend that the above listed coins should be collected by experienced collectors only. Too many fakes out there for novice collectors. |
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Replies: 15 / Views: 2,645 |
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Posted 05/01/2018 1:37 pm
