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How Far Back Can We Go? Fifth Edition! Ended At 1461 Waiting On 1460 C. E. (A. H. 864)

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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 08/30/2019  6:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Am very curious what collection these are from.


quite likely many collectors in the 19th and early 20st century had these tags

Here in Belgium a new day has started - and as I travel most of this Saturday, I take the liberty to post this 1585 jeton a bit earlier than as usual. It is my best jeton, not only because of the great way to convey important political developments of the year but also because the piece is so well conserved.

1585 Dugniolle 3044, van Loon I.362, Tas221 - Jeton from Dordrecht 'Capitulation of Antwerp and Nijmegen / Request for help from England

Obverse: Spanish soldiers feed a horse (Antwerp) and a donkey (Nijmegen)
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864

Reverse: Queen Elizabeth gives a rose to the kneeling Dutch diplomats
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864

This piece has a similar small handwritten tag as the jeton of 1586; both are related in subject.

The Fall of Antwerp in 1585 was one of the most significant events that contributed to the irreversible division of the 17 provinces of the Low Countries into a Southern part (Spanish Netherlands, today split into Belgium, Luxemburg and Northern France) and Northern 7 provinces (today The Netherlands). In 1585 the metropole of Antwerp a very important commercial and cultural center not only for the Low Countries but for the whole European region.

Alexander Farnese succeeded in capturing Antwerp by a complete siege, cutting off communication of the city with the rest of the world, meaning no supplies, no food. One of his most famous works was the construction of a ponton bridge blocking access of the port of Antwerp to the Scheldt and the North Sea: the base of the floating bridge was a series of 200 vessels chained together flank-by-flank, on which wooden platforms were nailed. This construction indeed prevented relief help into the city. Below a drawing of the pontoon bridge which was praised for its ingenuity and efficacy

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864


The were attempts to destroy the bridge, but all failed. One was a huge wooden fort from the United Provinces built to shatter the bridge to pieces. This overambitious wooden monster called "Fin the la guerre" (the end of the war) was too heavy and never achieved its goal.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864

Relief forces in the polders of the Antwerp area did not break the iron grip of Farnese on the metropole.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864

On the 17th of August Filips van Marnix van Sint-Aldegonde, major of Antwerpen, signed for a surrender of the city. Many calvinists left the Spanish Netherlands for good to settle in the North, and it is generally accepted that this large scale emigration from South to North has contributed to the rapid rise of Amsterdam and other Dutch cities.
Valued Member
Norway
375 Posts
 Posted 08/31/2019  01:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add giljan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
3 groschen, Poland, 1585
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7974 Posts
 Posted 08/31/2019  08:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@1c5d, fantastic jeton, and great history. Safe travels.

@giljan, I think this Lithuanian trojak is Iger V.85.3.a(R3) the rarest subtype for Vilnius mint (it is missing the arrow on the symbol below the bust). Here is the most recent sale at WCN for refernce,https://wcn.pl/archive?q=trojak+V.85.3.a.

My earliest dated Italian coin is this 1585 giulio of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany with images on the reverse of St. John the Baptist, patron saint of florence (left), and St. Francis of Assissi, namesake of Grand Duke Francesco de Medici:
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864


Edited by tdziemia
08/31/2019 08:16 am
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34464 Posts
 Posted 08/31/2019  10:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well done @1c5. That jeton is the crown jewel of an amazing collection.


Here is my (much more modest) Half Batzen from the German Countship of Pfalz-Zweibrucken dated AD 1585:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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pepactonius's Avatar
United States
9395 Posts
 Posted 08/31/2019  10:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1585 -- Kingdom of Hungary, 1 denar:
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
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Arkie's Avatar
United States
2637 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2019  01:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Arkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lost track of time.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
Edited by Arkie
09/01/2019 01:37 am
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Petrus's Avatar
Belgium
2895 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2019  02:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petrus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1 / 20th philipsdaalder
1584
Duchy of Brabant,
Mint: Tournai (tower)
DOMINUS MIHI ADIUTOR
the lord is my helper
PHS.D.G.HISP.Z.REX.D.TORNA.
Philips dei gratia Hispaniæ rex dux Tornacensis
Philip, by the grace of god, king of Spain, duke of Tournai
Muntheer: Philips II (1555-1598)
ref: Van Gelder / Hoc 215-14
ref: Van Houdt 310-TO
ref: RN1218

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2124 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2019  05:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
France, 1 franc, Henry III, 1584, Toulouse (M)
Silver 833/1000, 13.9 g, 35 mm
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
Henry III reformed the French monetary system and introduced the ecu and franc as denominations with fixed values of 60 respectively 20 sous tournois, thus abandoning the livre as money of account and the very flexible (and at times inflationary) values assigned to various coins by the crown. 1 and ½ ecus were gold coins and 1 franc (= 1/3 ecu) was the largest silver coin (the largest coin, in fact).

The reform lasted until 1602, when Henry IV decided that the ability to alter the value of coins emitted was - well, useful - to the crown in times of money shortage, and reverted back to the livre and a new value of 65 sous for the ecu.

One note about mint marks, since this coin uses double marks: "M" is the official letter for the Toulouse mint since 1540, but like many other mints, the old system of "secret points" is still maintained in parallel. Hence the point below the 5th letter of the inscriptions on both sides of the coin, the position for the Toulouse mint in the old system.
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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2019  06:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tdziemia and @spence, thanks!

wonderful 1585 giulio of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany and splendid 1 franc, Henry III, 1584 !

On the 10th of July 1584, William of Orange was assassinated in his headquarters in Delft by Balthasar Gerardts a man hired by king Philip II of Spain to murder the main leader of the Dutch Revolt against the Spanish Habsburgs. Below two jetons and one silver daalder that connects to this important moment in the story of the Dutch revolt

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864

1584 Jeton Dordrecht 'assassination of William of Orange'
Dugniolle 2995, van Loon I 344, Tas208
Obverse: Balthasar Gerards salutes politely and then shoots William of Orange from small distance; behind the scene Philip II gives "instructions" (with a pointed gun an hand on his sword)
O DIRVM SCELVS NON MANEBIT INVLTVM / 1584
Reverse:Shepard between his sheep attacked by wolf
PATORVM OCCIDIT NE VOS CREDITE LVPO / CONFIDITE

1584 Jeton Dordrecht 'praise of the qualities of William of Orange'
Dugniolle 2997 (var); van Loon I347
Obverse: Portraits of William the Silent and Ulysses
DIOMEDIS ROBORE VLISSIS CONSILIO 1584
Reverse:
Seven arrows (the seven provinces) united into a strong bundle (one country)
on a strip AMOR PATRIA FIDES COIS FORTVNA
Legend VNA VALET PLVS IGNAVIS QVAM FORTIBVS OMNES (unity is worth more than all individual forces)

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864

Prinsendaalder (Gehelmde Rijksdaalder) Dordrecht mint, province of Holland. This is the first year that these daalders bearing the portrait of William of Orange were minted. They would be produced posthumously for the next two decades in different dutch provinces.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864

Willem van Oranje is called the Vader des Vaderlands (father of the Netherlands); indeed he is seen even today ad the founder of the country we know today. The Dutch national anthem (called the Wilhelmus) was written by Marnix van Sint Aldegonde (the major of Antwerp see previous post) in his honor.

His departure created a vacuum that added to the chaos of who and how the Netherlands were ruled. Outstanding wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Silent

The chaos in the Low Countries was not diminished by the death in 1584 of another ruler, François d'Alençon, the duke of Anjou, who we will meet in this thread tomorrow. In this chaos the star of Alexander Farnese, the duke of Parma was rapidly rising, the next year (see 1585) he would take the metropole of Antwerp by a brilliant act of closing the Scheldt.
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Petrus's Avatar
Belgium
2895 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2019  07:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petrus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
indeed a very very nice franc, Henry III, 1584, Toulouse (M)!
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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7974 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2019  07:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Again today such impressive contributions from our European colleagues before even our first cup of coffee!
I will point out on that nice French franc that Henry III is claiming the title "King of France and Poland" when Stefan Batory is already 7 years on the Polish throne!

Poland-Lithuania commonwealth, 1584 1 schilling (solidus) first year of operation of Malbork mint. Malbork was in former Prussian land, and still has the Prussian sword-wielding eagle reverse, and legend SOLIDVS TERRARVM PRVS. Just 8 years later, in the reign of Sigismund III, Malbork coins have the same reverse design as other Polish coins, and no reference to Prussia.
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
Edited by tdziemia
09/01/2019 07:48 am
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34464 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2019  2:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
the old system of "secret points" is still maintained in parallel


Thank you to @erafjel for teaching me something today.

Here is a Pfennig from the German Free City of Regensberg dated AD 1584. I thought it was kinda neat for the date (in two digits) to equal the denomination (in fraction).

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Edited by Spence
09/01/2019 2:23 pm
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pepactonius's Avatar
United States
9395 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2019  8:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1584 -- Kingdom of Hungary, 1 denar:
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7974 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2019  06:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I thought it was kinda neat for the date (in two digits) to equal the denomination (in fraction).

I forget if we had a 1624 poltorak/dreipolker posted, but that would have shown the same type of coincidence.
With so many years of the decimal system behind us, that system seems peculiar.

For 1583 I have another trojak of the Poland Lithuania Commonwealth, Olkusz mint. Some coins from this reign (including this one and @giljan's of 1585) show the family emblem of Batory between the Polish eagle and the Lithuanian knight. The jawbone with three teeth pertains to a legend of an early family member slaying a dragon.
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
Edited by tdziemia
09/02/2019 07:51 am
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pepactonius's Avatar
United States
9395 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2019  09:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1583 -- Kingdom of England, 6 pence:
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
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