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How Far Back Can We Go? Fifth Edition! Ended At 1461 Waiting On 1460 C. E. (A. H. 864)

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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
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 Posted 09/02/2019  12:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@pepactonius: great that you posted a coin of queen Elizabeth I

Below a half daalder minted in Antwerpen in 1583, the period that the task of sovereign of the (chaotic) Netherlands (north and south) was confided to Francis of Alençon (1555-1584). A piece which is difficult to find.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864

Alençon, often called Anjou in the story of the Dutch revolt, was the youngest son of King Henry II of France and Catherine de' Medici.

In 1579 William the Silent had invited him to accept the title "Protector of the Liberty of the Netherlands" and become the sovereign of a much divided 17 provinces where no one could foresee the future. This was the time the Southern provinces united with a Spanish ruler with the Union of Atrecht, while the North united in rebellion with the Union of Utrecht.

But Anjou was quite distracted by other affairs, like courting the 20 yr older queen of England. Below a detail of a love letter between the two.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864

However, A marriage was not possible because religious complications and opposition of influential politicians like Leicester and Walsingham.

Portrait of ANjou
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
Edited by 1c5d7n5m
09/02/2019 1:04 pm
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 09/02/2019  2:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting history and unusual coin.
I was trying to make sense of the obverse legend, which looks like
FRN F FRAAN FRA VNIC REG D G DVX BRA

(Francois, Only Brother of the King of France, and by God's Grace Duke of Brabant?)
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 Posted 09/02/2019  3:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tdziemia, great suggestion!

Anjou was the younger brother of Henri III and nominated by the States General of the Netherlands Duke of Brabant and Count of Flanders, titles that belonged to King Philip.

So a very strange emission of a coin made in a confusing society with the South gathering around the growing power of Farnese and the North led by William of Orange. I short Anjou was rather powerless and when he tried a military "coup d'etat" (which failed) he lost all confidence.

Below a jeton from 1583 on occasion of the failed attempt of Anjou to seize the city of Antwerp by force. We see again as in 1584 the emblem of the wolf attacking the shepherd.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864

Below an amusing summary of the strange political situation in that period by a satirical painting "Queen Elizabeth I Feeds the Dutch Cow. Oil on panel, artist unknown"


We see an allegory of the Netherlands (a cow) which king Philip tries to ride, while the prince of Orange hold the reigns. Anjou grabs the tail of the animal and receives cow dung on his pants. Queen Elizabeth is feeding the cow. It would be very interesting to understand who is milking the cow .....

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franc...uke_of_Anjou
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 09/02/2019  4:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It would be very interesting to understand who is milking the cow ....


Perhaps the first time on Coin Forum that it is NOT a coin which we are trying to identify!
The other three men are wearing different types of hats, and the milkman's hat most closely resembles that of Philip. Can that be a clue?
Edited by tdziemia
09/02/2019 4:06 pm
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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
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 Posted 09/02/2019  4:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Perhaps the first time on Coin Forum that it is NOT a coin which we are trying to identify!




the image of the painting has all the circumstances that explain the story of the jetons of the 1580-ies

the hats are indeed important; very good guess
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t360's Avatar
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 Posted 09/02/2019  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1583 Charles III, Duke of Lorraine

1/4 teston

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 09/02/2019  7:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice! The dated coins of Charles III are very few if I recall, despite his long reign. I have only the 1588 florin with some damage from mounting, but did not post it here (it is on page 260 of the How Far Back ... Fourth Edition).
Edited by tdziemia
09/02/2019 8:01 pm
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t360's Avatar
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 Posted 09/02/2019  8:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1583 King Henry III of France

Franc au col fraise

Toulouse(M)
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
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 Posted 09/03/2019  03:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
FRN F FRAAN FRA VNIC REG D G DVX BRA

(Francois, Only Brother of the King of France, and by God's Grace Duke of Brabant?)

Yes, you got it tdziemia - and I have the F FRAAN part as well:

Franciscus Filius Franciae Frater Unicum Regis Dei Gratia Dux Brabantiae = Francis, Son of France, Single Brother of the King, By Grace of God Duke of Brabant.

FRAAN is probably a misspelling of FRAN (although I have seen Franciae written Fraanciae as well, but that is unusual).
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erafjel's Avatar
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 Posted 09/03/2019  03:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
1583 King Henry III of France
Franc au col fraise
Toulouse(M)

t360, that is an exceptional Henri III franc! These large hammered coins are so hard to find in good shape...

Interestingly, practically all Henri III francs au col fraise (ruff collar) have the Toulouse mint mark (M). They were minted 1576-86, and only in Toulouse, with a single exception of Amiens (X) in 1578. All other mints made the franc au col plat (flat collar), during the same period.
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 09/03/2019  06:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
FRAAN is probably a misspelling of FRAN
.
I have seen examples from 1582 with FRAN. Perhaps in 1583 the Antwerp die maker was distracted by the cannonballs and such, and made a mistake.
Concerning the col fraise (I cannot find the accent on my keyboard which makes this a strange collar indeed), we see that Stefan Batory, King of Poland, may have been less interested in fashion than his peers on other thrones (he was from Transylvania, perhaps not the most cosmopolitan place?). Philip II, Elizabeth and Henry III are all wearing this fashionable accessory (well, only some of the time for Henry, as we see in that nice portrait).

Poland Lithuania Commonwealth, 1582 schilling/solidus, Gdansk mint
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
Edited by tdziemia
09/03/2019 06:20 am
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 Posted 09/03/2019  07:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petrus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Quote:
FRN F FRAAN FRA VNIC REG D G DVX BRA

(Francois, Only Brother of the King of France, and by God's Grace Duke of Brabant?)

Yes, you got it tdziemia - and I have the F FRAAN part as well:

Franciscus Filius Franciae Frater Unicum Regis Dei Gratia Dux Brabantiae = Francis, Son of France, Single Brother of the King, By Grace of God Duke of Brabant.

FRAAN is probably a misspelling of FRAN (although I have seen Franciae written Fraanciae as well, but that is unusual).


Indeed correct!
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 Posted 09/03/2019  6:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Quote:
FRN F FRAAN FRA VNIC REG D G DVX BRA


thanks for the explanation ! The duke of Anjou was indeed the younger brother of Henri III from whom we see again a nice coin today.

below a jeton of 1582 from Dordrecht showing the first attempt on the life of William of Orange. From the short distance the bullet did not miss the prince, but William recovered from the wound.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
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 Posted 09/03/2019  7:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1582 King Henry III of France

Franc au col plat

Paris(A)

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
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 Posted 09/03/2019  9:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1582 -- Kingdom of England, 3 pence:
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Fifth-Edition!-Ended-At-1461-Waiting-On-1460-C.-E.-A.-H.-864
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