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First Strike Coins....what's The Real Story?

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USSID18's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  12:45 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add USSID18 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
This may be a silly question but how can there possibly be so many "First Strike" coins for any certain year? In reality there can be only one true "First Strike" because the next coin would be the second strike and the third would be.......

Is it just some gimmick to make people think that they have the first struck coin so they can ask more money for it? Is it just a money maker for everyone (TPG'ers) involved? It really makes no sense to me.

*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***
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Tootallious's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  12:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tootallious to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great question Tom!
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  01:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's coin shipped in the first 30 days of delivery which they say on the back of the label. The market gives them a premium because it wants to but they know what it is, and generally they come with special attractive labels which people like.

Same deal with first release and early release from NGC

Technically there can be more than one first struck coin though if multiple die pairs were used each die would have a new first strike.
Edited by basebal21
07/25/2018 01:02 am
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sel_69l's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  01:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
DMPL Morgans are first strike coins. That is why they so good.
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Alpha2814's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  01:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alpha2814 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a marketing thing. Since some coins are minted and stored long before they're available for sale, and since dies do wear over time, there's no guarantee that any coin shipped within that "first strike" window is of any higher quality than one struck later in the run with a freshly installed die.

That said, the label is more attractive.
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jimbucks's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  02:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
DMPL Morgans are first strike coins. That is why they so good.


They could be from an old die that was just freshly polished.

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Tootallious's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  02:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tootallious to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I found this on CMI gold and silver .com

I apologize as it is lengthy but I beleive it answers the question.

First Strike Coins or Strikeout Coins?
First Strike coins are the current hot promotions of telemarketers. Precious metals investors should, in most instances, avoid First Strike coins. This article explains what First Strike are, how they came to be, and the risks they carry.

Most investors seeking information about gold and silver turn to the Internet. There, in a matter of seconds, investors can find numerous websites promoting First Strike coins. Invariably, those websites heap praise on First Strike coins, in efforts to elevating them to genuine numismatic status. However, even a brief investigation into First Strike coins calls them into question.

First Strike Definition

As the U.S. Mint website notes, "Currently, there is no widely-accepted and standardized numismatic industry definition of first strike." Accordingly, firms promoting First Strike coins use their own definitions and often embellish First Strike with fanciful and sometimes misleading explanations as to what First Strike coins really are.

According to one website, First Strike coins are the first coins struck from a new set of dies and are "often are the most coveted by collectors, having sharper details and even sometimes proof-like qualities." Yet a reading of the U.S. Mint's website posting about First Strike coins challenges this definition.

The posting states that the U.S. Mint does not "track the order in which we mint such coins during their production." In other words, the Mint does not segregate or specifically identify the first coins minted from a set of dies. Further, the Mint does not necessarily ship coins in the order in which they were minted, thereby refuting the assertion that coins labeled First Strike are among the "first coins struck from a new set of dies."

No U.S. Mint First Strike Program

The coins most often being promoted as First Strike are the American Silver Eagles, the American Gold Eagles, and the new American Gold Buffalo Coins. Here is what the U.S. Mint says about the minting and distribution of those coins:

American Eagle and American Buffalo Coins are not individually numbered and the United States Mint does not keep track of the order or date of minting of individual bullion or proof coins.

If that doesn't lay waste the notion that First Strike coins are the "first coins struck from a new set of dies," here's what else the Mint says:

The United States Mint begins production several weeks before these coins (American Eagles and Gold Buffalos) are scheduled to be released. By the release dates for 2005 and 2006 bullion coins, the United States Mint had already minted approximately 50% of the projected sales numbers for these coins. Any dates on shipping boxes containing uncirculated bullion coins sent to Authorized Purchasers are strictly for quality control and accounting purposes at the United States Mint at West Point. The date on the box represents the date that the box was packed, verified as 500 ounces and sealed, and the date of packaging does not necessarily correlate with the date of manufacture.

Another website defines First Strike coins as "near-perfect specimens produced within the first few hundred strikings in an edition." However, the U.S. Mint's postings on its website shows that there is no way for sellers of First Strike coins know that the coins which they are promoting really were among the first coins struck with a set of dies.

Since the U.S. Mint says that there is no widely-accepted and standardized numismatic industry definition of "first strike," let us move on to what First Strike coins really are.

PCGS and NGC First Strike Coins

PCGS and NGC are the two premier coin grading services, and both have First Strike programs. From the NGC website: For U.S. bullion coinage, NGC designates as first strikes coins that were shipped from the U.S. Mint within the first month of their official release.

Note that NGC does not say that the coins eligible to be labeled First Strike are among the first coins struck but are coins shipped within in the first month of release. Further, here are three sentences on the NGC website that add insight to the First Strike issue:

Collectors have always sought out coins of special significance, and one way that a coin can be distinguished from another is by the date that it was struck. Included in this category are coins of early or first release. A general term for these coins is first strikes.

While the assertion about collectors is probably right, the second sentence illuminates the issue. First Strike coins from the U.S. Mint are really "coins of early or first release." The final sentence drives the nail home: A general term for these coins is first strikes. The conclusion: First Strike coins are simply "early or first release" coins. First Strike may or may not be the firstcoins from a set of dies.

The PCGS website does not discuss First Strike coins, but does post the U.S. Mint's position on First Strike coins. However, PCGS, as does NGC, says that for coins to be labeled First Strike, they must be received within thirty days of commencement of shipping (or have documentation that "proves" that the coins were shipped during the first thirty days of a coin's production.)

First Strike Not Trademarked

Some websites maintain that PCGS trademarked First Strike; however, a search of the U.S. Patent Office's website does not evidence that, and a search of the PCGS website did not find any claim of having trademarked First Strike. NGC asserts there is no trademark for First Strike and that it is a generic term in the coin industry.

First Strike Coins Not Proven

First Strike Gold Eagles, Silver Eagles, and Gold Buffalos, despite being the most frequently promoted First Strike coins, have not yet proven themselves in the secondary coin market, which is to say there is not a strong resale market. First Strike coins are the present favorites of telemarketers. First Strike coins also are promoted by websites that push any and all "collectibles." First Strike coins are promoted for one reason: First Strike coins generate greater profits for the sellers.

There are genuine collector markets for items that once were everyday, common items. Old U.S. coins, stamps, and antique dolls are good examples. However, rarely - if ever - have new products been pushed as collectibles and they actually became collectibles. The success - or lack thereof - of Franklin Mint products developing collectible markets is a good example.

The Franklin Mint markets a myriad of "collectible" items, everything from toy cars to Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis jewelry. But, the Franklin Mint's first products were silver ingots and coins, commemorating U.S. presidents, the fifty states, banks, etc. Today, there is next to no market for Franklin Mint silver coins and bars as collectibles. They liquidate for value of their silver content. First Strike bullion coins may go the same route.

In reality, First Strike is a hyperbolic term intended to cause investors to think that uncirculated bullion coins have greater value than they actually do. It is a marketing ploy, like a laundry detergent being "new and improved." Investors thinking of buying gold are forewarned. First Strike coins may be only strikeout coins when it comes to gold investing. For more information about investing in gold and silver, visit CMIGS' website.
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spru's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  04:01 am  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is this a continuation of this topic: (?)

http://goccf.com/t/324784


Quote:

Quote:
DMPL Morgans are first strike coins. That is why they so good.

They could be from an old die that was just freshly polished.


That's not really how it works. Die polishing does not affect the devices in relief like striking coins does.
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 Posted 07/25/2018  05:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I found this on CMI gold and silver .com

I apologize as it is lengthy but I beleive it answers the question.


I have a general rule not to listen to bullion investment groups about numismatic matters. Some of that was good though it is a very dated blog post and the market has shown the first strike early release ect are generally more popular and many do have a premium which varies depending on which one.


Quote:
That's not really how it works. Die polishing does not affect the devices in relief like striking coins does.


Excessive die polishing/buffing is what caused DMPL Morgans which is why so few of them qualify. Philly made the dies and each mint was responsible for finishing them aka polishing/buffing or basining if you prefer.

The fields are the raised part of a die with the design being recessed, the exact opposite of what it's making.
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John1's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  05:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"First Strike" and the like are selling ploys. It is for people who collect the holder and not the coin. A MS69, and a first strike MS69 coin, is still a MS69 coin.
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justinberry's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  07:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add justinberry to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just saved me forty bucks, thanks.
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Andrew99's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  08:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Early Release is another scam. The worst example of these are the Philadelphia minted no P ASE. People paid thousands of dollars for these $18 coins.
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USSID18's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  10:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add USSID18 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is this a continuation of this topic: (?)


No, I had not seen that thread. But interesting, thanks!
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USSID18's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add USSID18 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Outstanding feedback! Much more then I ever thought or expected!

I think I've heard enough.


Quote:
However, rarely - if ever - have new products been pushed as collectibles and they actually became collectibles. The success - or lack thereof - of Franklin Mint products developing collectible markets is a good example.

The Franklin Mint markets a myriad of "collectible" items, everything from toy cars to Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis jewelry. But, the Franklin Mint's first products were silver ingots and coins, commemorating U.S. presidents, the fifty states, banks, etc. Today, there is next to no market for Franklin Mint silver coins and bars as collectibles. They liquidate for value of their silver content. First Strike bullion coins may go the same route.

In reality, First Strike is a hyperbolic term intended to cause investors to think that uncirculated bullion coins have greater value than they actually do. It is a marketing ploy, like a laundry detergent being "new and improved." Investors thinking of buying gold are forewarned. First Strike coins may be only strikeout coins when it comes to gold investing. For more information about investing in gold and silver, visit CMIGS' website.



Quote:
ploys



Quote:
marketing thing



Quote:
scam


Nothing wrong with making money in our free market economy. With anything purchased, it's buyer beware. Sure, you can get lucky but the odds are against us. It's almost like false advertising if you don't read the small print.

Thanks for the reality check guys!
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  11:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The mint is wrong about one thing, on OCCASION the mint has held special ceremonies for the first coins struck for a new series. On those occasions the Mint DOES track the order of production and the VIP's that make those first and early strikes are presented with coin they struck with a certificate and presentation case. These are true First Strike coins. Examples would be the first 1892 Columbian Exposition half dollars, the first Morgan dollar presented to Rutherford B Hayes, there was a first strike ceremony on San Francisco for the 1986 ASE, and there was one for the 2000 Sac dollars. There have probably been others.
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Tootallious's Avatar
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 Posted 07/25/2018  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tootallious to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great feedback guys! I have learned a lot but I think the bottom (For me anyway) it what John1 posted.


Quote:
"First Strike" and the like are selling ploys. It is for people who collect the holder and not the coin. A MS69, and a first strike MS69 coin, is still a MS69 coin.
John1


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