What Was The First Coin Dated In Positional (Hindu-)arabic Numerals?

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january1may Pillar of the Community Russian Federation 5174 Posts	Posted 08/07/2018 7:56 pm Just about everyone knows about the first AD dated coins (Roskilde 1234), and a lot of people know about the first coins dated in European "Arabic" numerals (St-Gallen 1424). But of course the Muslims were dating coins in their own Arabic numerals well before 1424 AD; I have one example that (probably) dates from 723 AH = 1323 AD, and, IIRC, yet earlier dates are known. Which leads to (what I thought was) the obvious question: what was the first coin dated in any variety of (Hindu-)Arabic numerals, anywhere? (I should clarify that I mean positional numerals, the ones where the digits are the same for units, tens and hundreds. This means that the assorted Western Kshatrapa coins dated in non-positional Brahmi numerals don't count, any more than the Greek numeral dated coins of the Parthians and Seleukids would.) Weirdly, this doesn't appear to be a question I've seen explicitly answered, or even researched, anywhere. Or, rather, there's a bare quote that shows up every so often, apparently directly copied, and without any supporting evidence: Quote: The first dated coin using positional numerals is a relatively common small silver coin of northern India, 418 A.H. (1027 A.D.), using the Hindu-Arabic style of numerals. I was so far unable to identify this "relatively common small silver coin of northern India" (there are some likely candidates, but they don't appear to have numeric dates). The oldest example that I could find, as it happens, came from a completely unexpected place: Norman Sicily. A fairly common(-ish) copper coin of Ruggero II, made at the Messina mint, gave the date as 533 AH in archaic Arabic numerals, corresponding to 1138/9 AD. Now that I know about this type, it had joined my long-term wishlist... not that I could realistically afford one anytime soon (examples appear to sell on auctions regularly, but tend to cost around $200). ...Any further comments on the question? Is the Sicilian coin of 533 AH truly the oldest dated in positional numerals? (Come to think of it, were any coins ever dated in positional numeral systems other than Hindu-Arabic?) An old VCoins page on an example of the Sicilian coin describes it as "the first coin of Europe using positional (modern) numerals in the date" - implying that there are perhaps earlier such coins from Asia - and suggesting to look in "Dated Coins of Antiquity, p. 12, for a brief discussion". If so, I have no idea how to check this; I could hardly afford a copy of this catalog any more than I could afford an example of the coin, and it doesn't appear to be freely available online (or, if it is, I was unable to access it). ...Oh, and just in case - is this a weird question, and was this subforum the right one to ask it? I was just randomly wondering about it one time, and was surprised that there didn't seem to be a detailed discussion of it anywhere the way there are lots of regarding, for example, early dated AD coins. Again, sorry for the distraction Report this Post to the Staff

Spence Moderator United States 34418 Posts	Posted 08/07/2018 8:26 pm Quote: is this a weird question, and was this subforum the right one to ask it? Yes and Yes! I just wish I had some answers for you. In the meanwhile, I think that I'll look to see what is the earliest example in my own collection. I know I have a dated coni from 1422 AD, but maybe I've got something even older. Added: Ok @J1M, here are the earliest dated coins that I have in my colelction from various empires: Europe: 1419 AD Arab: AH 99 (718 AD) Western Satraps: 289 AD I'm sure others here can beat at least some of these with coins from their collections. Other dated coins I have are all in relation to the ascension/regnal date of a particular ruler and therefore not in scope for this particular exercise, right? "If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb "The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz Edited by Spence 08/07/2018 9:17 pm Report this Post to the Staff
echizento Moderator United States 23731 Posts	Posted 08/07/2018 10:36 pm Interesting question and one I don't have an answer for either. Though I think you might have answered your question with the Indian example of 418 AH, I think that region would most likely area to search. Report this Post to the Staff
Kushanshah Pillar of the Community United States 1554 Posts	Posted 08/07/2018 11:47 pm The 418h reference is apparently to the Ghaznavid bilingual dirhams of Mahmud. According to Album in the Checklist, they are "dated in words in Arabic, but also dated 418 in Sanskrit numerals on the reverse". Coins with dates in purely Arabic ciphers rather than words don't become common until about 700h, but I don't know what issue is considered "first". Like you, I'm surprised this info isn't easier to find. Edited by Kushanshah 08/08/2018 12:21 am Report this Post to the Staff
jimbucks Pillar of the Community United States 4692 Posts	Posted 08/08/2018 12:17 am I'm pretty sure the correct answer isn't 46 BC. Report this Post to the Staff
Finn235 Pillar of the Community United States 6130 Posts	Posted 08/08/2018 02:03 am Positional numerals were not practical or mathematically sound until the work of Brahmagupta in 628 to establish the mathematical properties of zero. Coming from the tradition of dated Sassanian coins, Islamic dirhems were dated right off the bat, but written out fully rather than utilizing numbers. I don't think I recall seeing any dated Islamic coins (in numerals) from before the 1300s. Report this Post to the Staff
louie Valued Member 76 Posts	Posted 09/07/2018 6:10 pm Please educate me. What do you mean by "positional". Would coins with Roman numerals count? Report this Post to the Staff
Kushanshah Pillar of the Community United States 1554 Posts	Posted 09/08/2018 12:20 am @louie "Positional" means that the value of a numeral depends on it's sequential position, like the value of "3" in 321 and 123 respectively. Roman numerals in classical usage are position-independent and have the same meaning regardless of position, like tally marks. Subtractive (positional) notation such as IV for 4, IX for 9 and XC for 90 was rarely used in ancient Rome but became popular in the 13th century (according to Wikipedia). Edited by Kushanshah 09/08/2018 12:45 am Report this Post to the Staff
louie Valued Member 76 Posts	Posted 09/08/2018 02:33 am @Kushanshah Thank you very much. There are two different coins struck by Alfonso VIII celebrating the re-taking of Toledo (Toleto) Spain. One Obol the other Denier. They bare the es-Safar calendar date 1204. This translates to 1166 AD. The date on the coin is ERA MCCIIII, ERA referring to the es-Safar calendar. While the Roskild denier is the first "positional" dated coin, the Toledo Obol and Denier pre date the Roskild coin by 68 years 1166 AD=es Safar 1204.Pictures of these two coins may be viewed at medievalcoinage.com Report this Post to the Staff
louie Valued Member 76 Posts	Posted 09/08/2018 03:21 am I stand corrected. The Roskild has Roman numerals as do the two Spanish coins. They just use a different calendar system. The 1424 St. Gallen plappart I believe is the first positional dated coin. I apologize for confusing the forum. Report this Post to the Staff
january1may Pillar of the Community Russian Federation 5174 Posts	Posted 09/08/2018 09:59 am Quote: I stand corrected. The Roskild has Roman numerals as do the two Spanish coins. They just use a different calendar system. The 1424 St. Gallen plappart I believe is the first positional dated coin. I apologize for confusing the forum. The 1424 St. Gallen plappart is the first positional AD dated coin (in Arabic numerals); there were, of course, much earlier dated coins, e.g. of Golden Horde, that used the local variety of Arabic numerals to represent Hijri dates. The earliest of those appears to be the Sicilian copper (forgot the exact denomination) of AH 533 (=1138/9 AD). Which, incidentally, deserves a placement on MedievalCoinage.com at least as much as the Spanish denier of es-Safar 1204 I mean, neither of those coins is using the AD calendar, and both are, in principle, European. Supposedly the Ghaznavid bilingual dirhams of AH 418 (=1027 AD) had the date 418 listed "in Sanskrit numerals" on the reverse; I don't know enough to tell whether the system described as "Sanskrit numerals" is positional or not. (I was unable to pick up any of several styles of Sanskrit numerals that I could find on images of that coin type, but maybe I just wasn't looking in the right place.) Incidentally, @louie, do you happen to have a coin from the year 1480 AD? If so, the How Far Back Can We Go (Fourth Edition) thread is waiting for your pics! Report this Post to the Staff
louie Valued Member 76 Posts	Posted 12/12/2018 02:24 am Obv. ERA MCCIIII Rev. TOLETUM Obv. ERA MCCIIII Rev. TOLETUM The E Safar calendar was implemented by Augustus Caesar 38 BC. While the date on the coin reads 1204, by the new calendar (todays) it is 1166. Report this Post to the Staff
january1may Pillar of the Community Russian Federation 5174 Posts	Posted 12/17/2018 4:49 pm Quote: Obv. ERA MCCIIII Rev. TOLETUM The E Safar calendar was implemented by Augustus Caesar 38 BC. While the date on the coin reads 1204, by the new calendar (todays) it is 1166. Nice coins! Unfortunately, since the date is in Roman numerals, they are ineligible for this thread; there are plenty of older coins dated in Roman numerals (in non-AD calendars, obviously, but those two aren't AD either). The oldest coin dated in positional Hindu-Arabic numerals still appears to be the Sicilian follaro of AH 533 (1138/9 AD), pending a clarification of what's going on with the Ghaznavid dirham of AH 418 (1027 AD). ...Someone really should make a generic thread for dated ancient coins. How about "Twenty Weeks of Dated Ancient and Medieval Coins" (or something along those lines, not sure how to phrase it best)? First week (or whatever unit we end up using) for anything before 300 BC (not sure if anyone on CCF has any, admittedly), and then one week (or whatever) per century until we get to 1600 AD. Report this Post to the Staff
louie Valued Member 76 Posts	Posted 12/19/2018 04:22 am I realize that the coins I posted have Roman numerals and do not have a date with positional numbers. I posted them since I mentioned them earlier in the thread. Should I remove the pics? Edited by louie 12/19/2018 04:25 am Report this Post to the Staff
Sap Moderator Australia 16834 Posts	Posted 12/19/2018 11:11 pm The Ghaznavid coins mentioned by the OP are in Sanskrit, written in the Devanagari alphabet. They have the dates written in Aryabhata numerals. While some literature describes this numeral system as "positional", it is perhaps best described as "semi-positional". Just as Devanagari "letters" are composed of a vowel-consonant combination, so Aryabhata numerals are composed of a "consonant" component, representing a number between 1 and 100, and a "vowel" component representing the power-of-ten applied to the number. Thus, the letter "G" by itself (with the implied consonant "a", giving the combined letter "Ga") was the number "3", Gi would be 300, Gu would be 30000, Gr would be 3000000 and so forth; 30, 3000, 300000 etc would be written using the letter "N" (Na, Ni, Nu, Nr, and so on). The primary difference between this and a "true positional" numbering system devised some centuries later is the lack of a concept of or symbol for "zero", requiring the use of the vowel-consonant combination to fully denote the position in a large or complicated number. Nor had they invented the concept of assigning unique characters to the numerals, instead adopting and adapting directly from the Devanagari alphabet. The system allowed them to easily write the really humongous numbers present in Hindu cosmology, but it fell out of favour as many of the resulting number-words are really, really difficult to pronounce. Take the example given on the Wikipedia page linked to above: the number "299,792,458" would be written (and pronounced) "JaLaGHiNiJHuSuJHrSrKHl" - which is as tongue-twistingly nonsensical in Sanskrit as it is in English. Which did mean that people tended to swap the order of numerals around to try to make them more pronounceable, thus defeating the whole purpose of positionality (to make mathematics easier). Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis Report this Post to the Staff
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