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 Replies: 59 / Views: 9,180 |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
653 Posts |
I have my eye on a 1766 Mexican 8 Real coin. I think it is a handsome coin. This coin is shown below within the 39.5mm coin holder. So it appears to have a smaller diameter. The part that I find really interesting is the "back to front ghosting" of the date on the bottom of the reverse of the coin as shown in the second attachment. I would be interested in feedback pertaining to this coin from CCF members Squire   Edited by Squire Wilson
09/25/2018 04:02 am
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Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
Assuming it is authentic, it was probably struck on a different host coin and what you see are remnants of the original host.  |
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Valued Member
Canada
496 Posts |
Looks like a die clash to me.Other shadows of flowers and the Mexico City mint mark are there.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1915 Posts |
If it is struck over another coin then other signs of that might be found under a strong magnifyer.
I have some coins like that where the undercoin is visible.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
Have you done your homework? By that I mean have you viewed every certified 1766 Mo 8R at Heritage and Stacks to see what design anomalies may be present on this coin? I'm not going to do your homework for you but I will say it looks like there is not enough dentil visible.
Since you can't see the edge and don't know the weight or size you would be well advised to be extremely careful.
Genuine coins of this type were not struck on different hosts.
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Pillar of the Community
 Australia
653 Posts |
Thanks for the responses jgenn, Albert, Dennman and cableguy815 Interesting is the observation that evidence of the die clash only appears on the bottom part of the reverse of the coin. I agree that it is important to do the homework jgenn, and I spent a few days surfing the web prior to my CCF post doing just that. By following your advice  I have uncovered a little of the "pedigree" of the coin. It appears on the web page at https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/mex...mpLot-081514 From CCF discussions pertaining to the topic of 8-Real authenticity I understand that the "slabbing" of a coin is reassuring but is not an absolute guarantee of authenticity. Comments would be welcome. Squire Edited by Squire Wilson
09/26/2018 03:52 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Jack, these mid-1760s dates often have very short denticles. So... good research work, and very fortuitous to have found the actual coin (as the initial photos were useless for analysis - but enough to confirm it IS this piece). Does anyone notice the oddity here? The clashing is actually (and I don't believe this is optical illusion) RAISED, not incuse - but yet properly "reversed" and in correct position (so NOT a flipover double strike). I'm trying to do the mechanical gymnastics on this... It can't simply be multiple die clashes (impacting slight remnant images back and forth), because you're always going to end up with a negative (incuse) clash. The only thing I can figure is that maybe it also involves some combo of die clash and brockage/blanks getting stuck in the die(s)...  |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
653 Posts |
Thanks realeswatcher
I have not yet fully purchased the coin so I could not take a high resolution photo of this. However the die clash presented a neumistmatic challenge that was begging for further investigation.
Thanks to you, jgenn and all the other helpful CCF members for your valuable feedback
Maybe we can get to the bottom of the mystery. I will keep searching on the web also
Squire
Edited by Squire Wilson
09/26/2018 10:01 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Well, you won't get a clearer photo than the Heritage pic... but have you indeed seen it in hand? Was it your impression that the date digits and floret from the pillar side are in fact showing as RAISED (as it certainly appears from the pic)? Assuming yes... anybody inclined to ask a specialist what may have happened here? (and should be pointed to anyone being asked that these coin were indeed medal alignment rather than coin alignment). Perhaps: http://www.maddieclashes.com/http://koinpro.tripod.com/ErrorVarietyList.htmPS - The other interesting thing is that it certainly appears that the "clash" (however it happened) is from a 176 5 pillars-side die. See the image flipped horizontally (aka mirror-image). It also seems like the 3rd (aka decade) digit "6" is partially double-impressed...  Edited by realeswatcher
09/26/2018 10:38 am
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Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
That's great stuff realeswatcher - thanks for the insightful analysis. Very interesting oddity.
I am still confused however, does all of this add or subtract to or from the authenticity of this coin?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
Anybody else wondering what is going on with the bottom half of the lower castle? Looks like pieces of the design punch were missing when it was punched into the die.
Very interesting coin, good catch on the die clash date issue Realeswatcher.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
The excellent images from realeswatcher make me even more suspicious. The easiest explanation for this is that it's a screwup by the counterfeiter. I don't know what happens when a coin is sent to the TPG for an authenticity review and it is not deemed genuine. Certainly it would be removed from its slab and it might then be sent back to the submitter. That would be one explanation why this coin is no longer slabbed. edit to add: Then again it was in a genuine (aka details) slab so it might have just been removed to help it sell better. Edited by jgenn
09/26/2018 1:04 pm
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Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
Quote:I don't know what happens when a coin is sent to the TPG for an authenticity review and it is not deemed genuine. Certainly it would be removed from its slab and it might then be sent back to the submitter. That would be one explanation why this coin is no longer slabbed. I think the more likely explanation is that the buyer bought this slabbed and figured it would sell for a better price if he cracked it open and sold as a straight coin. Squire - what is the seller asking? Is it over the $276 all in price at Heritage? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
Yes, my edit didn't post in time.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
653 Posts |
Thanks for the feedback jgenn, cableguy815, franch and realeswatcher.
From the Q+A page on the PCGS web page I have gleaned the following information:
"No grade" coins fall into three categories: problem coins, inconclusive or ineligible.Only Problem coins will be placed in PCGS Genuine capsules. Those in the final two categories will be returned to the submitter unencapsuled.
The 8 Reale piece under discussion here has a grade designation 92. This refers to a coin that has been cleaned. Surface damage due to any forme of abrasive cleaning conforms to this designation, however "dipping" is not considered cleaning under this definition.
Thanks for revealing the $276 US Heritage price. I am relieved to note that the reputable vendor is selling this coin at a modest profit. The extra cost is quite reasonable and acceptable to me.
Squire
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
For giggles yesterday, I went through every 1766 I saw on Heritage and acsearch and didn't find any identical clashing. A few slight clashes here and there, but not that specific one, or anything approaching that effect. Really, I wouldn't expect there to be many... If legit, whatever was happening during striking must have been doing a number on that shield die (which was already rather "used", being a 1765). Started looking at 1765 pieces also but didn't get far... though again, I don't think whatever was happening here would have lasted very long to strike many coins. Quote:
Anybody else wondering what is going on with the bottom half of the lower castle? Looks like pieces of the design punch were missing when it was punched into the die. jfransch, I think that's an effect of the clashing that distorted things a little. That whole lower area is somewhat affected (esp. around the lion and CAROLUS). Speaking of that CAROLUS/lion area, I also wonder if the planchet doesn't vary in thickness and/or have a bit of a wave to it near there. Looking at the coin - strike, surfaces, what looks like some skin to it despite the bang for cleaning... and the circumstantial evidence of a holdover shield-side die somehow getting gummed up makes sense - I think it's genuine. I don't know how to explain this effect, however. Yo, Bob, you out there? If anybody wants to message him... I've seen his FB score on a few things... of the type he would bid on recently, so I know he's out there :->. Certainly would want to know if he's ever seen an effect like this. |
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Replies: 59 / Views: 9,180 |
Posted 09/25/2018 1:53 pm
