1531 Thaler / Ducaton / 3 Gulden Germany- Holy Roman Empire?

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Author	Replies: 5 / Views: 1,402
esjarl New Member Norway 0 Posts	Posted 09/25/2018 10:14 am Hello! I have in my possession a very interesting big silver coin from 1531, which I struggle to identify, and would be very grateful for any assistance you could give me. The coin is 40-41 mm in diameter, 2.5 - 3.o mm thick and the weight is just short of 32 grams(I don't have a presision scale, but apprx 31.8 grams). material is silver, and the year 1531 I very clear(see pictures). Pretty well worn, and the patina of centuries is intact! Official grading I'll leave to those people I'm trying to reach here, people with the right competance and knowledge. Highlights: 1. Could be a Thaler from Ã-ttingen, Germany 2. The weight is to much for a standard Thaler. 3. 32 gram is standard weight for ducatons and 3 GÃ¼lden coins. 4. I would really appreciate som help here!! In my efforts to identify this coin, it was quite clear the it originates from The Holy Roman Empire, stretching from Italy up through all Germanic States(todays Geramny) in the North; in the west it streched out all the way to include Spain. Through the years 1530-1556 it was ruled by Charles(Karl)V. I first introduced it to numisma(German website), suggesting it was a Thaler for one of the German states. This led me to e pcture of a 1546 Thaler from Ã-ttingen, which was nearly identical except placement of the yeas. I also found a German historical document from 1870-80, mensioning the Thaler minting of Ã-ttingen starting in 1531. Then a member of this forum was kind enough to recommend the expertice here. On the topic of the weight of 32 grams, he sugested that it might be a Ducaton(Ducate)or a 3 GÃ¼lden coin, both of them have a 32 grams as standard. Report this Post to the Staff

jbuck Moderator United States 188191 Posts	Posted 09/25/2018 11:15 am to the Community! Coin Collector Since 1978 Avatar Old Avatar 7070 Eisenhower Australia Canada World CCF Members on eBay CCF eBay Search Engine Report this Post to the Staff
cableguy815 Valued Member United States 414 Posts	Posted 09/25/2018 1:31 pm This is indeed a thaler from Ottingen German States), but as you mentioned the weight is way outside of acceptance. others can chime in and agree or disagree but here is what I think: I believe this coin to be a forgery. Based on your pictures, it appears that the coin is not patinated but rather silver plated, and that plating has worn off exposing the base metal core. I note several details being significantly off from genuine examples (most notable the dog's head on top of the crest). These details are extremely poorly defined despite the supposed "wear" of the coin. Furthermore, the year itself is not of record. There are no thalers of 1531 that I was able to find in sales history nor are there any in NGCs registry/catalogues. Combine all of that with the fact that the coin's weight is quite off (normal weight is around 28g - I was not able to find specimens with a weight of over 29.5g let alone almost 32g) and you have enough to say that this coin's authenticity is in serious doubt. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news - hope I am wrong Edited by cableguy815 09/25/2018 3:36 pm Report this Post to the Staff
paulCT Valued Member 186 Posts	Posted 09/25/2018 3:13 pm esjarl I'm happy that you decided to post here because as I said to you before there's some very experienced collectors of thalers and world crowns, posting around here. cableguy815 I was hoping to get a reply from you on this item.I believe you are right.The coin weights too much for a thaler,the date is not mentioned in the catalogue,only 1524 and 1532,different design above date,also the N from TIN.I.OT(obv.)is not right.The surface of the item looks suspicious enough for a silver coin so esjarl needs to check it's really silver.All in all this might be an old forgery, at least this is my feeling now.I hope Zohar444 or/and WCG are around so maybe we'll be able to see some more points of view! Edited by paulCT 09/25/2018 4:29 pm Report this Post to the Staff
wcg Valued Member United States 217 Posts	Posted 09/26/2018 11:06 pm I am doubtful about the authenticity of the piece. I think cableguy815 is right about the silver plating. The underlying metal is likely not silver and picture #2 is the best evidence. I also do not like the font of the 31 in the date. The 3 does not match the font used on other Ottingen coins of the same period. I also cannot find any examples in acsearch.info to match the eagle's tail feathers at 6:00. I am far from an expert on forgeries, but I would guess that it was cast based on the soft strike. Report this Post to the Staff
realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 09/27/2018 10:13 am I nothing of this series, but that's absolutely worn-off plating on the high spots - it it absolutely a plated base-metal forgery. From its appearance, however, it certainly has to be from that period, though... not a modern concoction. Thus, a "contemporary counterfeit". Kind of does have the same general presentation as contemporary counterfeits of lion daalders and cobs I've seen out of central/eastern Europe. Report this Post to the Staff
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