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 Replies: 14 / Views: 1,621 |
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Pillar of the Community
Singapore
631 Posts |
Hi guys, Is this an early Maria Theresa Thaler or something else? A few blobby letters are a concern. Weight is 27.5g.   |
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Moderator
 United States
34409 Posts |
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Looks like 1783-88 Hafner 27a Guenzburg mint. Pretty early. Nice find.
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Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
To me this feels like a cast. Not sure if it's the picture itself that also adds to the wrong feel, but that along with the mushy letters just kills it for me (look at the E and "REG").
Not to mention the dentils are just terrible in this example (especially @ 12 O'clock on both obverse and reverse).
Everything is wrong about this coin to me, including the weight. I don't buy the whole, it's .5g light because of substantial wear.
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Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
I just realized Swamperbob commented above me. Bob, I'm quite surprised your much keener eyes have not picked up on the on some of the inconsistencies in this coin. You usually point out things I would notice if I looked at a coin for a week straight.
You think this is a legit piece?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
cableguy815 The details of the coin design look correct - the E does not bother me too much because of the way the early dies were cut and used. The coin has clearly been polished but without viewing the rim I would not state that the weight was necessarily too low for the coin to be genuine. The weight differential is only 2.3%. I have not found a reliable reference for the tolerance used at this time but that must be considered before making a call.
The reason I did not comment on the coin possibly being counterfeit is because I am unaware of anyone producing such an accurate numismatic forgery. There is ALMOST ZERO chance of this being a counterfeit because there was no margin for a counterfeiter to use while it circulated.
I may be wrong but I would need a lot more to go on first.
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
My direct instinct tells it is not a real coin. Can I have a look to the edge of the coin?
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Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
@Wonghinghi yah... what don't you like here? Bob sorry for the delayed response. I never suggested this to be a counterfeit. I'm calling this a plain and simple forgery, and probably of the 99c Chinese variety. Going through previous sales, you'd be hard pressed to find samples in the 27.5g range. Most are in excess of 28 or very slightly under. But fine, I agree this is not enough to condemn the coin. However, from my point of view, the weight discrepancy, the mushy details, the complete blobs that some of the letters are, the off looking dentils are enough for me to body bag this coin. I have always admired your calm, composed, and scientific approach. Forgive my youthful impetuousness but looking at that coin I cannot help but mark this coin off, at least based on the images alone. I agree ultimately, having the coin in hand would obviously be more telling. Quote:
I am unaware of anyone producing such an accurate numismatic forgery I don't think it's accurate at all. Here are the things that immediately stick out to me:   Some comparables:     |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
cableguy815 You could be right - it may be a forgery, but I am completely unaware of such a variety being in production at this time or any time in the past 35+ years. I have collected MTTS for about that long because they were always inexpensive, easy to find in junk boxes and there were some nice counterfeits available as well. The fact that most dealers were totally unaware of the numerous varieties helped greatly in keeping the prices down.
The edge would definitely be of interest in deciding exactly what this is.
The feature you circled is actually very common on early MTT coins. I own several with that type of feature and the same thing is visible on your comparable coins. So are you saying that the comparable coins are not genuine? They all look genuine IMO. I suspect the dies themselves were the cause of the doubled dentils but I have not done extensive research to verify that.
The S is definitely anomalous but I attributed that to a possible crude repair not necessarily the die itself. To me the coin looks like it was worn as jewelry for many years and may have been drilled or mounted in some fashion necessitating repair. I say this because of the excessive central wear (both sides) which to me looks like polishing.
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Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
The comparable coins are genuine. I just posted them as reference to show how crisp and sharp the letters were, even in the worn/well circulated examples. I agree the double dentils are common, and yes, you can readily see it in the 2nd coin (from top) that I posted, but it's not limited to a tiny sliver on both sides. You could be right about this being a jewelry piece - this could explain the well worn dentils. The wear is definitely not uniform and some areas do seem tooled or at the very least rubbed with Brillo. Anyway, I think we've beaten this dead horse enough  . |
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Pillar of the Community
 Singapore
631 Posts |
cableguy815 The horse's leg just twitched a little, here are some edge pics.  
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The edge looks good. I have never seen one copied that well on any fake - at least not yet.
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Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
Quote:
The horse's leg just twitched a little Haha. Wait! Let me get the chainsaw. Umm the edge does seem OK, just a bit more flat than usual. I'm going to chuck this one in the  bin. Not sure what hands this coin has circulated in but I would bet that woman on the front has many stories she could share. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
Cableguy, most (if not all) of the the comparison examples you posted appear to be different variants, so differences are to be expected. The OP coin looks good to me.
Edited by Numismat
11/21/2018 9:54 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Singapore
631 Posts |
This horse has a fighting chance! Warhorse.
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Replies: 14 / Views: 1,621 |
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Posted 11/12/2018 2:43 pm
