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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,795 |
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
I have been hunting one of these for some time. It was low in my priorities so its taken me a while to commit to bidding for one. The toning on this one attracted me to it. It was issued by Phillip IV (1285 -1314). Many regard the Gros Tournois as an important coin, however a lesser regarded( relative comment) coin is, because of the story behind it, of more import. That other coin being the Prager Groschen which was an imitation of the Gros Tournois. The import of the Prager Groschen is that it was the first coin that was struck under legislation that required all the silver from a mine(In this case Kutna Hora) to be struck into coin. That law was not that successful initially, but it soon became the standard model across Europe.  Edited by austrokiwi
11/23/2018 05:55 am
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Moderator
 United States
23731 Posts |
Excellent toning, a beautiful coin with clear legends well centered and well struck. Congrats.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7066 Posts |
Outstanding.  |
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Moderator
United States
34397 Posts |
@AK, very nice addition to your collection and in significantly better condition than my example. Have you got around to attributing yours?   "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
 2087 Posts |
Quote:
Have you got around to attributing yours? Phillipe IV (1285 -1314) |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7936 Posts |
Beautiful coin! I no longer have one (I've been perhaps too zealous on selling off parts of my collection that I was no longer building), but I do have a nice Prager groschen. Is that also on your list, or do you already have one? They come up frequently at the weekly WCN auctions, and I saw a few pretty nice ones at a recent WAG auction. I am enjoying your historical notes. I realized that mints were co-located with mines in medieval times, but was unaware of the legislation requiring it. I've been working on a set of trojaks (3 groschen) from mints in the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth late 1500s. In some cases, the mints were relatively short-lived. The Olkusz mint only operated from 1578-1601. Apparently some innovations in lead mining in the mid-1500s allowed a large expansion of the lead mining/smelting industry there, and the quantities of silver (a by-product in the lead ores), made it worthwhile to open of a Royal Mint there. It is known that the silver output peaked at 200 kg/year. |
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
I have a Prager Groschen (its in the bank) That coin was much higher on my want list. the reason it was higher in more detail:
It took my a while to get my head around the forces driving the development of coins during the later medieval period and into the early modern period. After the fall of the western empire... money( coin) disappeared from every day life for nearly every one except the uber-rich. That situation was one of the reasons for the development and perpetuation of the Feudal system. It was only in the Italian Peninsula where city states survived on trading, that coin( mostly Arabic and Byzantine) was common. Even then merchants preferred bar to coin as it was cheaper and easier to transport. For most of western Europe Bar was preferred( no seignorage). The 4th Crusades attack on Constantinople in 1204, combined with the advance of Islam the center of trade shifted from Constantinople to the Italian Peninsula. The commercial revolution that started in the 12th century gained momentum in the 13th and by the 14th there was a great deal more demand for coin. Merchants still resisted using coin. Nobles with mines really wanted the product from those mines to be turned into coin because they could profit from the seignorage. As I noted this was first tried in Bohemia at Kutna Hora. It may seem the small guys were being ripped off by this but, it was the reverse. This was the start of the ( I hope you understand this concept of mine)democratization of money. What started with the Prager Groschen came to fruition with the ending of the feudal system. So if you wanted a symbol of the promise-of-future-freedom it is the Prager Groschen. Of course there were other socio-political forces at play but I focus on the coin side of things.
A non typo edit: The reason I wanted an example of the Gros Tornois is because it is a part of the process of this democratization of money. It started with the Grosso of Enrico Dandolo, the Gros Tornois was the next development , quickly followed by the Prager Groschen, the next steps were the Lire tron of Venice and then the Testone of Milan( I am due to receive one next week). After that the development shifted to the German and Austrian States( and of course Bohemia).
Edited by austrokiwi
11/23/2018 09:29 am
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1194 Posts |
it is a gros tournois à l'o rond , duplessy213,v , variant with a dot between turonus . civis , struck 1285 - 1305 . Mine is another variant with two dots at the upper lily . albert   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7936 Posts |
Well, since everyone's showing them ... Here's the one I sold off (also attributed by the seller as Dup.213, but with a date range 1285-1290):   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7936 Posts |
And I hope you will post that testone when it arrives.
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Valued Member
United States
80 Posts |
I think Phil IV is an interesting choice as he's the king who really put the screws into the Knights Templar
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2637 Posts |
It's not clear that he won that exchange.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2703 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Sweden
2124 Posts |
Quote:
Philip V. Let me know if you think it is an earlier one. I think for all gros tournois by Philip V, the R in TVRONVS has a tail (like the one by Philip IV shown by tdziemia higher up in the thread). Without a tail, it has to be either Philip III or Philip IV. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2703 Posts |
Thanks, @erafjel. I'll go back and look again at the earlier types.
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Moderator
United States
23731 Posts |
Beautiful strike and toning.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,795 |
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Posted 11/23/2018 07:57 am
