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Just What Constitutes "Cleaning" Of A Coin?

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fplagge's Avatar
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 Posted 02/24/2019  4:44 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add fplagge to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
OK, so we should NEVER clean our coins.

Is using soap, water and a Q-tip to remove soil from a coin considered "cleaning"? How about spitting on it, or just plain water and Q-tip?

I see talk of Acetone and other methods being used, so where exactly is the line to be drawn?

This is a serious question to me. Please, I need someone with authority to enlighten me.

Thanks
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llewellin's Avatar
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 Posted 02/24/2019  4:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add llewellin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Caveat: Ancient coins are in a different category and have a larger suite of acceptable cleaning techniques

Using soap, water, and a Q-tip is considered cleaning and is never acceptable for modern coins. pH and composition of the wide array of available soaps means that some soap will discolor and damage a coin while others will not, so soap in general is always to be avoided on coins. Spitting on a coin is obviously bad.

Water is ok, pure water is better, acetone is best. For any of these, never use a Q-tip to rub the coin surface because it will cause micro scratches. Generally the only acceptable methods for removing contaminants from a coin are non-contact soaking in distilled water followed by acetone then air drying, or just acetone then air dry.
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 Posted 02/24/2019  9:32 pm  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When you see the designation "cleaned" or "improperly cleaned" it means there is evidence that the coin has been rubbed, polished, etc. You might not be able to see these marks without magnification.
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 Posted 02/24/2019  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rayder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great question I was looking for the answer to as well. I've looked on this forum and some use verdicare with a microfibre cloth. Is that acceptable? I've read any kind of rubbing is bad. In the Verdi care method though you are still rubbing although it is supposedly very lightly on micro fibre. Is there a line at all or is it personal preference? Has anyone sent a coin in for grading after any of these methods? What were the results? Enlighten us both please.
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 Posted 02/24/2019  9:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rayder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh I forgot one question. Has anyone used acetone or verdicare on a medieval coin? Results?
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llewellin's Avatar
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 Posted 02/24/2019  9:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add llewellin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Any kind of rubbing is bad. Verdicare is meant for soaking application
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Earle42's Avatar
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 Posted 02/24/2019  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cleaning, by definition in the coin hobby, is what happens when metal from the coin itself is removed/marred.

Rubbing, polishing, scraping, etc. do this.

Conserving coins is acceptable and means the removal of foreign material without removing/scarring the coin's metal.

In other words, if you can tell dirt has been removed, you probably lessened the value of the coin.

Any solvent which will not alter the metal itself is OK to use.

Here is a thread containing a great guide by our member BadThad:
http://goccf.com/t/57008#447106

Also, using something that will not scrape the coin surface to remove dirt is fine. Some people use a toothpick. I have found porcupine needles work well for the gunk in the corners of the letters and mint marks. Pocupine quills are inexpensive and available on ebay. I put the coin under a microscope and use the quill to scoop away the gunk. The quill does not scratch the metal and so you cannot tell anything was done. However, this action (and with a toothpick) very, very rarely can make a tiny scratch if the utensil you used happens to push down on a hard piece of micro-gunk and you make a micro scratch by moving it.
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Edited by Earle42
02/25/2019 11:43 am
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 Posted 02/24/2019  10:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This is a serious question to me. Please, I need someone with authority to enlighten me.


Here's the problem with trying to do that. You could write a War and Peace novel and not even scratch the surface of covering every situation of what is okay when.

Everything is going to depends on the individual coin. Some things like a polish or a sanding buffer are never okay, but q-tips being rolled across the surface with a specific liquid can be the right move sometimes. There's no catch all this always works answer. Every coin and issue is different, some can be conserved others can't.

Now here's where we really get to the problem. The people that know the most about conservation don't talk. You get small hints or basic basic info and that's about it. They make money conserving coins and their knowledge is an asset to them. Some have signed confidentiality agreements ( TPG conservation employees) others have no interest in teaching people to be their competition.

The basic answer is that the final product is what matters for whether or not it would be called cleaned. The big reason why is is always so emphasized not to do anything is that, generally speaking if someone has to ask they shouldn't be the one doing it.

You could get a bunch of cheap pocket change and start experimenting remembering that the different metals of the different coins also matter. At some point you'll start seeing somethings are more a conservation that improves it instead of makes it "cleaned" but that that methods only work in specific situations.

In general something that is cleaned is stripped of luster, or cleaning lines (different some circulation lines), or scrubbed, or blast white low grade coins etc. Some look much better than others
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 Posted 02/24/2019  10:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The basic answer is that the final product is what matters for whether or not it would be called cleaned. The big reason why is is always so emphasized not to do anything is that, generally speaking if someone has to ask they shouldn't be the one doing it.

"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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jgenn's Avatar
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 Posted 02/24/2019  11:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
OK, so we should NEVER clean our coins.


Just apply some common, numismatic sense.

First, take a really good look at the coin in question. If you see scratches, even fine ones, then it really doesn't matter how you proceed -- the coin is already damaged so do what you need to do to make it more appealing to you.

Second, many circulated coins, such as ones you might actually pull from circulation or from your LCS's "junk" silver bin, won't have any difference in value if they are cleaned or not. It greatly depends on what you collect.

If you have something that might be valuable, and it's not already damaged, then handle with care using the good advice from those that have already posted.
Edited by jgenn
02/24/2019 11:29 pm
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 Posted 02/25/2019  12:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You could get a bunch of cheap pocket change and start experimenting remembering that the different metals of the different coins also matter. At some point you'll start seeing somethings are more a conservation that improves it instead of makes it "cleaned" but that that methods only work in specific situations.



If you wanted to practice on silver, you could likely get common date "junk silver" from a coin shop. You can get common date uncirculated coins this way.

Chemicals such as E*Z*EST and MS70 are inexpensive chemicals used to brighten coins and, if done in the correct manner, are said to be undetectable. However, it must be remembered "shiny"does not mean valuable, and it also is very easy to ruin a coin using these two chemicals.

E*Z*EST is a "dip" for coins that will quickly remove a natural look of the luster if the coin is left in for more than a couple seconds (literally). But if a person is practiced (use junk please!), they can get results which TPGs will accept and grade.

MS70 is probably best used by wetting a cotton swab and rolling the swab onto the coin surface or dabbing at a spot on the coin with discoloration. Again though, caution! Too much exposure to the chemical is discernible. Practice makes perfect.

Even though I have conserved quite a few coins with both of the above, I go by the idea that more than one very quick application/bath is a lot better at limiting the risk of ruining the coin. Some people also dilute the chemicals with distilled water to limit the impact the chemicals can have at one application/dip. Either way the distilled water bath should be immediately handy.

How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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 Posted 02/26/2019  07:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cleaning a coin is just not the thing to do. Way back almost everyone did do that. It used to be normal to try to get rid of dirt on a coin regardless of what happened to the coin. Today it is just not acceptable. Why, is mostly due to most cleaning of a coin tends to remove some of the metal of the coin. Also, many methods of cleaning leaves scratches or even wear marks. Best leave a coin as it is.
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Sap's Avatar
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 Posted 02/26/2019  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is using soap, water and a Q-tip to remove soil from a coin considered "cleaning"? How about spitting on it, or just plain water and Q-tip?

I see talk of Acetone and other methods being used, so where exactly is the line to be drawn?

It is important to make the distinction between "dirt" - foreign matter sitting on the surface of a coin - and the metal of the coin itself. Removing the metal itself is what is usually considered "bad cleaning" - though in some cases, such as ancient coins or other coins dug up from the ground, "bad cleaning" may be the only option available.

It's all to do with chemistry. If it's "dirt", then removing it is perfectly OK, provided the removal is done in such a way as to not damage the coin, because the dirt hasn't reacted chemically with the metal. Corrosion products were once part of the metal itself so you generally don't want to remove them unless leaving them on the coin is going to cause further damage to the coin.

"Dirt" isn't just literal dirt, it's anything of non-metallic origin that might stick to the surface of a coin: paint, glue, varnish, sticky-tape residue, and plasticizer residue that leaches out form certain plastics over time. These are all perfectly acceptable to remove from a coin. Many of those things listed above will be difficult to remove without some kind of solvent. Such a solvent should be chemically inert with regard to metals; "organic" solvents such as acetone, ethanol, methanol, hexane etc. are all acceptable. Acids (eg. sulfuric acid) and alkalis (eg ammonia) are not acceptable, as they actually react either with the metal itself or with the corrosion products.

"Corrosion products" covers a lot of phenomena and is given different labels depending on who is doing the labelling: oxidation, toning, patina, tarnish, rust, corrosion - these are all chemical damage caused by the coin being exposed to the environment. This planet does not like bright shiny metal, and from the moment a coin is made, the planet is doing its best to try to turn that piece of metal back into the mineral ores from whence it came, which is why coin collectors usually try to shield their coins from this environment. It should be noted that all corrosion products are considered "damage", and ought to be avoided on a coin. The main reason why cleaning is considered "bad" is that, when this layer of damage is removed, the underlying surface of the coin remains damaged - it's just that the damage is made more visible and obvious. The corrosion layer - particularly metal oxides - also often forms a protective barrier, preventing further corrosion (though this does depend on the chemical properties of the metal in question). So removing the corrosion products It also exposes fresh metal to the corrosive environment that cause the damage in the first place.

Some corrosion products are harmful to the continued preservation of the coin. "Green goo" that forms when plasticizer residue reacts with a coin is acidic, and will continue to damage a coin if not removed. "Bronze disease" is a contagious corrosion that forms on copper and bronze coins under certain circumstances, and can not only spread across the surface of a coin but can jump from coin to coin if the particles of dust beak off and land on another coin. These things have to be removed from a coin, to stop it from continuing to degrade. The resultant coin will still be damaged, and labelled as "cleaned", but at least some part of the coin will be saved.

This is why soaking a coin in acetone to remove old stickytape or green goo is perfectly OK, while "coin dip" such as E-Z-est (which is made from sulfuric acid and thiourea) is frowned upon.
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fplagge's Avatar
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 Posted 02/26/2019  8:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fplagge to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow! These are some really good replies. Several replies were awesome.
Jgenn: nice comment!
Methinks this is a topic which we should repeat periodically for newcomers to see.



Thanks, everyone
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BadThad's Avatar
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 Posted 03/01/2019  5:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cleaning - A process that results in a non-market acceptable coin.

Conservation - Everything else

It's that simple!
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