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 Replies: 14 / Views: 2,557 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
821 Posts |
ebay item 382858449252. Looks strange to me. Colour all wrong for grade, date placement is different from ones I have, 2 looks too small.
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New Member
Canada
12 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
Will be gone soon. Thanks. Mike Marshall
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
576 Posts |
Good to see fakes being exposed but it does worry me that counterfeit coins, and listed as copies, continue to appear on ebay Buy It Now listings. I thought ebay had said such listings wouldn't be allowed. A seller from the Russian Federation seems to slip through easily selling fake key date silver coins. |
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New Member
38 Posts |
It seems to be the same guy (a Russian), over and over again listing those. I've run into his auctions a few times looking for a couple different key dates. There's really no understating just how immensely harmful these fakes are. I'm returning to the hobby after a 19 year absence. The routine existence of high quality Numismatic fakes is a relatively new- and incredibly disheartening- thing. In all honesty, it's bad enough that it has me seriously reconsidering even wanting to get back in. This must be attacked at its origins. The US has various Federal laws in place to protect the integrity of hobbies. I would hope Canada does too. One investigator tasked with the case, who took the time to identify the fakers and issue a few selective warrants on packages originating from certain addresses... perhaps working with local authorities in China... could have a huge effect. As with all crimes, we will never arrive at 'perfect', they'll always exist and the ones that have been introduced thus far will be disruptive enough for quite some time but if this situation is left to run, the hobby will become a minefield that people will come to avoid. The only way to stop it is to cut off the source, the only way to make that happen is via legal mechanisms and the only way to get that ball rolling is to get someones attention. Does the RCNA have lobbying capability? Edited by dollars
03/31/2019 10:54 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
576 Posts |
Dollars, the practice has to stop. The fakes are too good and the fakers are getting more clever. Adding aging/wear, adding patina. These coins will end up in auctions and coin stores and flea markets in the future - guaranteed.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9864 Posts |
No need to wait they are there now.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
The fact is that the Chinese coins are coming off the same dies used over 10 years ago. The markers have not changed. The RCNA has done Very little to even educate about counterfeits. Tolerance of this by the majority of the RCNA membership makes them just as guilty as their leadership. They ( RCNA Executive) are terrified to lean on the RCM who is actually responsible to maintain the Heritage of our historic coins because they may lose the advertising revenue for their publication. Losing Sgt. F. to promotion, coupled with the moronic lack of action by the then RCNA President dropped "coins" off of the RCMP radar. Too few are actually doing anything about counterfeits. That said, please excuse me while I go looking for windmills......Mike Marshall |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5585 Posts |
For those of you who don't know, my friend Mikey, also known as nickelsguy, has led the Canadian charge to counteract the fakes that started to inundate the Canadian collector market. He formed a great friendship with Sgt F from the RCMP, who also took a keen interest and a concentrated two-pronged effort began. Mike finally got ebay to stop by going through Paypal and that threatened ebay's money supply. The RCMP started a door-knocking campaign threat to dealers suspected of selling Chinese fakes. Things were coming around, but the RCNA somewhat backed off. There are tough laws on the books in Canada, but a lack of enforcement effort by the RCM and RCNA made what could have been rewarding, a nearly forgotten campaign. Canada actually has tougher heritage laws than the US, but enforcement programs are more focussed on stopping currency counterfeiting than historical coinage. Mike actually worked with the US House of Representatives to help draft US legislation that mirrored the Canadian efforts, but that too lost steam (or really ANY initial effort). When Sgt F got promoted and moved, there was no one in the RCMP that wanted to grab the tail of the wounded donkey ... so the donkey is healthy again and only gets it's nose bloody by cancelling ebay auctions and Paypal transactions. The impetise to actually arrest someone for selling foreign crap has lost it's fervor. Only Mikey and JimmyD from this site, as well as the "counterfeit reporting" section still have their sabers drawn. Thanks guys! Edited by okiecoiner
04/01/2019 11:10 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
576 Posts |
So...I see in a recent issue of CCN that CAND is actively interested in combatting numismatic crime. Has CAND contacted ebay about the problem? Everything seems to come down to enforcement and given how inept that seems in many levels of public life now what can be done to create the spine necessary to get things done? |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5585 Posts |
Words are very easy to put in print or to make public statements. As soon as CAND, the RCM and the RCNA put forth some physical effort besides moving their lips, then maybe something concrete can happen. Until then, words are just words, regardless who's saying them. |
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New Member
38 Posts |
It's a niche issue that doesn't make much political hay, but we don't need a task force. We need one point of contact in Law Enforcement (US and Canada) who receives reports of fakes and whose job it is to run it down.
This will always be an issue, but the scale of the problem has gotten completely out of hand, to the point that super high quality fakes can be ordered by anyone for a few dollars, that stand little to no chance of being intercepted during transit. That alone is enough to gut the hobby. All that could change if a few higher profile prosecutions were made. Again, as noted, it's a mitigation issue. There is no 'perfection'. Laws do not stop dedicated persons willing to break them. What they do is dissuade people and create a hostile operating climate, which pounds the problem back into the shadows and by proxy, makes the problem less severe.
Seriously, between high qualify forgeries and now, forgeries of 3rd party grading service cases, this makes me (someone who wants to reenter the hobby and spend a little money on the coins I lusted after as a kid) just say screw it. Spend your time woodworking, I don't want to have to earn a PhD in die varieties just to engage in the simple hobby of collecting coins. The point of a hobby is to reduce blood pressure. Not raise it.
With all these fakes, it makes it not fun anymore.
Much praise to the few warriors who are out there fighting this battle. I hope you get recognized and armed with something more potent.
As an aside, but the potential for economic damages here rises well above just the theoretical market value of the coin itself. A forgery that makes the rounds through several hands of unwitting collectors creates a chain of potential civil liability that could get quite expensive for all parties involved, beyond the poor soul at the end of the line stuck holding the bag. I hope if this issue ever gets a higher profile and a little action ,someone mentions that. A $3000 forgery that is sold 7 times is 7 potential civil lawsuits. 7 potential plaintiffs attorneys. 7 potential defendants attorneys. 7 judges, untold numbers of bailiffs, court reporters, jurors, filing fees, paperwork.
Suddenly, that $3000 numismatic infection just cost a half-dozen people (and society at large) $100K in lost cost.
Edited by dollars
04/01/2019 12:57 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5585 Posts |
Canada at one time had that "go-to" person in Sgt Tony of the RCMP, but that ended about 3-4 years ago with his transfer West. Nickelsguy got $5000 for helping out the US Congressional contact, but that program went as well when interest dissolved. Call your Congressman about your concerns, but they all may be too busy [**no politics**].
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1185 Posts |
Quote:
With all these fakes, it makes it not fun anymore.  this is a trend that can seriously undermine the hobby the antidote? I don't know local numismatics perhaps, which has been too easily replaced by global internet numismatics with its anonymity and the necessity of the buyer to rely judgment on a pair of pictures value history behind a coin more that it potential value on the market cheap coins, uninteresting for fakers, can be very interesting for coin collectors |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
The US with their Hobbies Act kind of makes things worse with allowing clearly marked copy coins to be sold and as Mr.Carr's fantasy coins, all this do is confuse newbies to the hobby, as the old saying you can't have it both ways. In Canada the coins copyrights are owned by the RCM, if they request enforcement by the RCMP most of the fakes will stop, almost sure no company even ebay would take on the RCMP but this has to come from the RCM |
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Replies: 14 / Views: 2,557 |
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Posted 03/30/2019 04:47 am
