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Rarity Versues Pricing

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Ballyhoo's Avatar
United States
1613 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2019  11:19 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Ballyhoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Yesterday I stopped by one of my local coin shops. In the display case I saw an 1844 Seated Liberty dime, PCGS EF40. His listing price is $1325.00 which is more than fair, considering in my eye this beauty looks under graded. But since I am a regular it could be mine for 1200. I left empty handed with thoughts of that one residing in my collection. Had it slipped through my hands?

Which brings me to pose a question that quite simply baffles me and seems to bear absolutely no logic. To keep it short I'll reference two coins from two denominations. First, the 1909s VDB Lincoln with a mintage of 484,000. In vf it averages $1200 while the same year s mint Indian averages $400 in the same grade with a slightly lower mintage of 309,000. Finally, the 1916d Winged Liberty (Mercury), 264,000 minted versus 72,000 of the 1844 Seated. The very popular 16d averages the same as what that 1844 I'm going back for this afternoon in a much lower vg grade.

So, how is it that I can buy a coin much rarer at a fraction of a similarly graded coin? This occurs within a series as well, so comparing different series becomes irrelevant. Perhaps it has to do with popularity. I understand how mintage numbers often make little difference, but really? The coin in question has roughly one-quarter the mintage yet not even close in value. Why? What ever the reasoning to the madness, dollar for dollar I'm getting a fantastic deal on a rare coin in about an hour.
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There are no problems only solutions - the late, great John Lennon
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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2019  11:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pricing often reflects popularity (demand) more than rarity. Many people collect Lincolns, few collect Seated dimes.
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westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2019  12:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS is showing 24 graded in EF40 with 35 graded higher. I think the price of $1200 is a bit high right now, the last auction record was in January 2018 for $750.00 https://www.PCGS.com/auctionprices/...096923316108 and current bid is $850.00 for a EF40 while retail pricing is only $1000. I think the coin isn't a huge collector item (actively being searched for), but then again, I'm not an expert on market conditions for Seated dimes.

It all depends on why you want the coin, are you looking to invest only, hoping to make some money down the line? Then this probably is not a good coin to get, but if you are collecting a set of Seated dimes then it might fit the bill.

When buying coins only with the mindset to make a profit, I'd always look to heavily collected rarities like you said a 1916-D dime, 1909-S VDB cent, etc. Those particular coins are much more likely to keep increasing in value and have a much stronger collector demand in the future than a mid grade type coin, hence a much more liquid market. That is why you will always see an larger premium on the Lincoln Cent and Mercury dimes - way more collectors of those series.

If you are looking at the coin for a type set only, then look for a more common date in much higher grade, for $1200 you should be able to pick up a really nice PCGS MS63 or MS64 Seated dime instead.

Also check Numismedia FMV charts, they show 1844 Seated dimes have been trending downward in the past year in VF and EF grades. Then again most coins (1909-S VDB, 1916-D dime are also trending downward in all grades except MS64 and higher, way more than the prices you are looking at).
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
07/13/2019 12:06 pm
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CitationSquirrel's Avatar
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1026 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2019  1:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CitationSquirrel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You can have a really cool looking coin, an old coin, a rare coin, or a high-grade coin ..... those are all components of the price. But in the end, some one has to care about it. There needs to be a demand for it.
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mdpmedia's Avatar
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3546 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2019  4:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There needs to be a demand for it.


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fortcollins's Avatar
United States
3658 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2019  5:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
THE controlling factor is demand.

A better example might be the proof-only coinage from the depressions of 1877-78 and of 1893-95.

An 1877 3CN proof-only had a mintage of 510, and sells in the $1400-$1800 range for a normal unimpaired proof. The 1878 3CN proof-only had a mintage of 2,350 and barely snags $600. With virtually identical mintages, the 1877 Shield nickel proof-only sells for about $2000-$2200, and the 1878 Shield proof-only sells for about $900.

These differences (and similarities) turn completely on demand. About 500 coins much more easily satisfies the lower demands of the smaller pool of 3CN collectors than the slightly higher demands of Shield collectors. Neither reflects the vastly higher demands of the gaggle of Lincoln collectors. One could only imagine what any 500-ish mintage Lincoln would bring. The closest comparison might be the 1895 proof-only Morgan, with a mintage of about 880, which brings north of $40,000 for the worst examples. The 1895 Morgan only brings that little because the vast majority of Morgan collectors realize it is a hopeless coin to obtain, and bypass it in their collections.
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BStrauss3's Avatar
United States
4593 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2019  6:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Price has very little to do with rarity (beyond a broad level). Demand drives price.

If there are 5 in the world and only 1 collector, it's going to be cheap.
If there are 5 in the world and 500 collectors (think registry set), it's going to be dear.
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
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thq's Avatar
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3343 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2019  8:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The big question is whether YOU want it.

I like any 1854-59 San Francisco Mint coin. Except for the double eagles, they are all scarce to rare. I'm not picky about condition. Just finding affordable ones is challenge enough.

They used to be inexpensive, but not any more. The number of collectors only has to increase by 100 to exhaust the supply. The same thing happened with non-Morgan Carson City coins 10 years ago.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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kanga's Avatar
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5825 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2019  8:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Demand, of course, is reflected in price.
But another part of the situation is NOT how many were struck, but how many still exist.
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2019  9:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In the case of the S VDB and 16-D dime it's simply old marketing that created legends. We are still at a time where most collectors grew up before the internet market existed at all much less to the level it does today. Many were even collecting before the TPGS were around. In the old days keys such as this were hyped as rare and special and they became a dream coin. That mentality has carried along over the years as back then there was no way to know what was out there, just what your dealer or show had. Now with the internet we see neither of those coins are special in terms of rarity or availability, but that's not going to chance a lifetime of belief for most collectors. 40 years from now though the shine will probably have worn off on these and they will be viewed differently as that generation of collectors will have grown up knowing just how easy they are to find.

The other thing to consider is how a series is collected. While set building is on the decline, there are still a lot of people doing Lincoln and Mercury sets as they are affordable sets that pretty much anyone can finish as long as you don't go for top grades. ANYTHING seated has a complete stopper in the series unless you can afford 5 figure coins (or in the case of the dollars 6 figure coins) and that doesn't even get into the per coin expense of the series as a whole. Needless to say most people doing seated series are doing so knowing they'll never complete it so if they're missing some of the more expensive coins along with the stopper it isn't as big of a deal as missing the 16-D as your last coin. That keeps pressure off the prices and the stoppers in general will keep some collectors away from a series which again will help keep prices down.
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 Posted 07/14/2019  08:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Popularity makes the prices of coins.
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Ballyhoo's Avatar
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1613 Posts
 Posted 07/14/2019  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ballyhoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Rarity-Versues-Pricing

I am in agreement with you westcoin on the current pricing. Which was my initial reasoning for leaving without it on Friday. As you also mentioned the overall look fits perfectly with the series I'm trying to assemble. Since all of my others, with exception to a few varieties, are in Air-Tites I find myself contemplating to crack it out or not. Probably not since it is a key date of the series.

Thanks all for the comments and education. Appreciated.
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There are no problems only solutions - the late, great John Lennon
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