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1913 S Type I Buffalo Nickel For Grade Opionions

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luvmyCAM's Avatar
United States
1479 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2020  6:37 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add luvmyCAM to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Definitely appreciate opinions as to grade. I come up with VF20 obverse and EF40 reverse, net VF30. However I am far from proficient on Buffaloes or factoring strike so throw my hands in air Buffalo connoisseurs help.

1913-S-Type-I-Buffalo-Nickel-For-Grade-Opionions
1913-S-Type-I-Buffalo-Nickel-For-Grade-Opionions
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hfjacinto's Avatar
United States
7293 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2020  7:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hfjacinto to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not great with bison nickels either. I think your too optimistic. Based on photograde, I would say VG 10 obverse and reserve. Your rims are much too worn for an F/VF, but I could be wrong.
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T-BOP's Avatar
United States
18456 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2020  7:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm at obverse 35 ,reverse 30 .
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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 02/12/2020  8:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it's a solid VF-30, or even 35.
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fortcollins's Avatar
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3671 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2020  9:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Appearance of a Buff depends on:
Die state
Die polishing (to eliminate evidence of clashing)
Strike quality
Circulation
Alloy and environmental issues

The series has quirks that vary by design and year and mint.

There are nine different obverse designs and the two different 1913 reverse designs. All of the design changes occurred to address strike and wear pattern problems. Only the reverse design change actually succeeded. Philadelphia coins are generally decently struck. Branch mint coins range from horribly struck dates (1926-S, 1924-D, 1925-D) to merely average struck dates (1934-35-36-37-38 Denver coins). Keep in mind that San Francisco and Denver only had one year's experience striking nickel coinage before this coin, and had to wrestle with a complicated new design and unknown die wear and clashing issues.

Here's what I see with your coin:

Die state: The obverse die is LMDS, as is the reverse die. Matching die states are pleasant surprises in the series, since dies generally were changed individually, rather than as a pair.

Die polishing is an issue on your coin. The common clash areas are Indian's chin/EPU (very obvious and not polished on your coin's obverse, and lightly polished on the reverse), second feather/buffalo's head (both heavily polished on your coin), "BER" of LIBERTY/buffalo's right rear leg (reverse heavily polished on your coin), "ED*ST" of UNITED (dot) STATES (polished on your coin), and Indian's neck/buffalo's back (possibly polished on your coin).

Strike quality is average for the date, mint, and type of your coin, which is to say a bit mushy, but not awful. This is most evident in the peripheral weakness, such as rims and lettering that is close to the rims.

Circulation looks even and natural for your coin.

I don't see any alloy issues, such as laminations. The crud on the obverse and spots on the reverse could be serious issues, if they have caused pitting. Especially on the obverse, this could detail the coin (97 code, environmental). I can't tell from the pictures whether there is damage to the surface. You should be able to determine this with the coin in hand.

Design issues: FIVE CENTS is weak, which isn't unusual, even on a lightly circulated type 1. LIBERTY is weak. This was a design issue, and not strike or circulation weakness, on 1913-1915 Buffs, and LIBERTY should be disregarded for these dates in grading.

Putting this all together:
Obverse. The hairline is complete, though weak. The eyebrow, nostril, cheekbone, dimple, and jaw are decent. There is full detail on the second feather, including a complete rachis, calamus, and feather tie. The date and both ribbons are complete, but weak from die polishing. The tip of the second feather is weak from die polishing. The hair at the forehead is weak from die polishing.
Reverse. Peripheral lettering is weak, but complete. Ditto for the tail and horn. The tail just misses being split. There is well over half the hair on the buffalo's back, and about 1/3 of the hair on the head. The neck hair, beard, and upper front legs are decent. There is notable die polishing weakness on the right rear leg, the horn, the buffalo's head, "ED*ST" of UNITED STATES, and EPU.
Factoring in LMDS die state, heavy die polishing, and the typically mushy strike, your coin is EF-40 obverse, right on the VF-35/EF-40 bubble reverse, net EF-40 unless the possible environmental damage on the obverse details the coin.
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hfjacinto's Avatar
United States
7293 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2020  9:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hfjacinto to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great detailed write up. I understand where you are coming from, but if I saw this coin with a VF/EF grade I would pass. It just doesn't look VF to me the poor condition of the dies would make me skip this coin, even if the wear is light. When I did my bison nickels all I cared about was a clear date. So many were poorly struck that I didn't see paying a premium for mist of the higher grades.
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luvmyCAM's Avatar
United States
1479 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2020  11:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add luvmyCAM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks coop for dismantling this coin in a comprehendable sequence. I suspected this one was over my head. Purchased it as a F-12 for $36.00 at my LCS on assumption it may be undergraded. There is an old pamphlet I read (1977?)that does point out some of what you covered but in much less detail. I downloaded it from the "Newman Numismatic Portal" Washington University ST. Louis MO. You gotta love when coin books were still illustrated with drawings and mimiographs of example coins. Black on obverse is staining and not PVC, dot on reverse is also stain. Its presently soaking in acetone and hopefully it may dissolve some of staining. Thank you all for your input, this series is a challenge.
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Greasy Fingers's Avatar
United States
7105 Posts
 Posted 02/13/2020  12:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I sure you meant fortcollins and not coop on this one.

So much more to learn about Buffs, bookmarked another one...thanks fortcollins
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T-BOP's Avatar
United States
18456 Posts
 Posted 02/13/2020  07:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My goodness , where would we be without fortcollins grading our Buffalo nickels . He had my head spinning on this one .
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panzaldi's Avatar
United States
18720 Posts
 Posted 02/13/2020  11:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm at XF40+.

obverse - weak strike
the feather where it meets the hair is fully separated
the clasp at the top of the feathers is nicely separated
the clasp in the braid is showing pretty much full
horizontal lines
the braids are rounded

Reverse - weak strike
horn tip is there
good detail in the fur on the back
good separation of the back fur and body
you can still see the tail split
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IndianGoldEagle's Avatar
United States
36905 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2020  1:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A weakly struck coin. EF-40
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