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Bishoproic Of Breslau 15 Kreuzer 1693

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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7965 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2020  08:07 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I recently picked up this coin at auction, despite the obvious planchet flaws obverse.
I am not so much interested in an opinion on grade as I am on thoughts on what happened during the production of this coin. There is a rough texture in the upper part of the fields obverse, and some raised striations both obv and rev.

In addition to the obvious planchet flaw(s), am I seeing some die cracks (the striations) and die corrosion (the rough areas)? Or does this look like something else?
Bishoproic-Of-Breslau-15-Kreuzer-1693
Bishoproic-Of-Breslau-15-Kreuzer-1693
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2020  08:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am in two minds about what I see here.
1. Could be a fake (surface texture in XV suggests cast, plus interesting edge feature at 9 0'clock), or
2. Could be a dirty genuine blank when struck, or could the striations be filed weight adjustment marks before strike? Could be poor die hardening technique and a distressed die struck this coin.

Do you have another 15KR of about the same period with which you can compare it with?
By compare, I mean drop it from about 1 inch (only) height onto a hard surface, and compare with the other 15 KR, listening for difference in sound.
Also compare for weight, thickness and close visual inspection of edges.

Alloy could be billon, with less than (say) 30% silver

Hope I have given enough to think about and dismiss, a process of elimination seems to be the order of the day.
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34443 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2020  1:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tdz, I wonder if this coin spent a considerable amount of time in saltwater. How is the weight? I agree that the surface is off. Here are a couple similar coins minted around that time in Breslau for comparison:

Bishoproic-Of-Breslau-15-Kreuzer-1693
Bishoproic-Of-Breslau-15-Kreuzer-1693


Bishoproic-Of-Breslau-15-Kreuzer-1693
Bishoproic-Of-Breslau-15-Kreuzer-1693

As you can see, my '93 15 Kreuzer also has a patch of roughness on the rev, but it looks different from yours.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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coinworldtv's Avatar
Austria
566 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2020  2:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinworldtv to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@sel_69l Kreuzer coins (change) from the Olmutz mint appear often like this.

@Spence No, this is not salt-water corrosion, these are mint-made planchet defects.

The reason for this appearance are deteriorated roller dies and a poorly produced silver sheet.

No worries about authenticity here.

Edited by coinworldtv
06/09/2020 2:55 pm
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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7965 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2020  8:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for moving this topic to a place where it would get this good discussion, and the comparison to other contemporary coins.

The auction house is about 300 km from Breslau/Wroclaw/Wratislava, so I expect they see a fair amount of Silesia coins, and (hopefully) would recognize a fake. But I do not have the weight, so this did make me think a bit.

I probably need to learn more about the roller die process. Many (but not all) coins I have made by this process tend to lack definition, sometimes while showing a lot of luster, suggesting very little circulation wear. And I don't know what was going on with silver quality in this era, but Polish szostaks (6 groschen coins) from the 1680s often have black streaks and other planchet flaws even worse than this (on the World Coin Grading subforum, I showed a slabbed coin from this era where the flaw goes completely through the coin).

Despite what shows in the photos, (and thanks to my deteriorating eyesight), this coin actually looks pretty nice in hand
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 06/10/2020  08:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have learned a bit. Thx.
Edited by sel_69l
06/10/2020 08:58 am
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