Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Specializing in Modern Numismatics Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors 300,000 items to help build your collection!








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

The 1815 Ships Colonies And Commerce Token, Breton 995 (Pe-9A)

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 6 / Views: 1,643Next Topic  
Valued Member
blargish's Avatar
United States
178 Posts
 Posted 06/24/2020  11:35 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add blargish to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I recently jumped at the chance to grab this higher-grade example of Breton 995. One of my nicer pickups to date! This token was struck from worn and rusted dies, hence the lack of detail (heavy rust is evident around "HALF___NNY" on the reverse.) It shares an obverse with Breton 996 which has an interesting reverse die link to an Isle of Man token issued in 1830, which was discussed in a relatively recent thread on here (http://goccf.com/t/374029). Hence, the tokens are likely antedated. Both Br-995 and 996 are assigned to PEI, and are somewhat overshadowed by Br-997, the popular Ships Colonies & Commerce tokens, with whom they share their obverse legend.
The-1815-Ships-Colonies-And-Commerce-Token,-Breton-995-Pe-9A

For comparison is the example in the upcoming Doug Robins Part II sale, graded NGC AU55.
The-1815-Ships-Colonies-And-Commerce-Token,-Breton-995-Pe-9A

I purchased mine with a grade of EF40 in mind, but it appears to be on par with the Robins example. In hand, the surfaces are pretty exceptional. Really tough to accurately grade these guys (especially via photo) but I try to pay attention to the sharpness of the date on the obverse and detail in the floral ornaments of the reverse plus the surface rust. Any other opinions are welcome!

An interesting thing I came across is that there appear to be two distinct die states of Br-995. Below is an example sold in 2012 from the Temple collection (PCGS AU50-but likely nicer). Notice the spectacular detail and the rust-free reverse which shows the PE of HALFPENNY. Notably, the top-right serif of the first M in COMMERCE is perfect, while it is cut off in the two previous examples.
The-1815-Ships-Colonies-And-Commerce-Token,-Breton-995-Pe-9A

Even after scouring the internet, this remains the only example of this early state that I've come across. I'd be interested in hearing if anyone else has noticed this or has an example of it.

Below are closeups of the M's for comparison. That of Breton 996 is in the middle (taken from the brass example up for grabs in the Doug Robins Part II sale.)
The-1815-Ships-Colonies-And-Commerce-Token,-Breton-995-Pe-9A
This, among other markers (eg. die polish(?) marks right of the obverse ship of the later state of Br 995), makes it clear that Br-996 with the Isle of Man reverse was struck between at least two die states of Br-995, the latter of which had deteriorated significantly.


Just an interesting observation that I thought I'd share for those interested in the series, and I'm pretty happy about the new addition to my collection! If you also happen to have one of these, feel free to share!





Moderator
Learn More...
SPP-Ottawa's Avatar
Canada
10456 Posts
 Posted 06/25/2020  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Doug Carlson usually would chime in on a topic like this, but I have not seen him online in a bit.
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

My eBay store
Pillar of the Community
1960NYGiants's Avatar
United States
666 Posts
 Posted 06/25/2020  9:40 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@blargish - I would not be surprised if your piece also graded AU. Consider the edge sharpness and raised burr. Circ examples do not generally have sharp edges or burr.

Very nice example!
LM of RCNA
Member of CATC
Pillar of the Community
Silver101's Avatar
Canada
1081 Posts
 Posted 06/26/2020  06:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Outstanding post and fascinating coin. I'm not an expert on these tokens (or anything else really) but another option for grading might be the the state of the rims - they appear to be very good.

And I have a question if I may: I see on the reverse (? not sure which side is which - the one that says 'half penny') that some of the beads around the edge are presented and others are lost. Lost or is it more likely that they were never there? The quality of the original strike is clearly way out in front in terms of importance on these things eh?
Pillar of the Community
daltonista's Avatar
United States
1057 Posts
 Posted 06/26/2020  10:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice pickup, blargish, and good eye on those die varieties! I think the legends on yours, both sides, are vastly superior to the NGC-graded Robins example, where they're all flattened out. I'm not enough of an expert to venture a guess as to whether that's attributable to wear, die, or strike.

If you use "(Breton, BR) 995" as your search term, you'll find several on ebay right now, including one graded by CCCS at EF-40. If they're correct, yours is definitely an early-strike ch AU-58, if not better. So this is another one to add to that group you're assembling for ICCS.

Great find, blargish, and wash your hands, everyone!
Tom


"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti


Valued Member
blargish's Avatar
United States
178 Posts
 Posted 06/26/2020  3:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Doug is user "colonialtokens" if I'm not mistaken, SPP-Ottawa? And yes, his past posts regarding, well, colonial tokens, have been very informative for me.

1960NYGiants, the edges are pretty telling! I'm not too familiar with the term "burr", but I take it you're referring to the raised metal around the rim of the reverse, also visible on the obverse of the Robins token. An effect of punching out the flan?

Silver101, yes, I believe that it's pretty hit or miss whether or not the reverse beads strike up on this token in the later state. There are well-circulated examples that show the beads better than higher-grade examples and it comes down to the uneven striking.

Tom, the sharpness of the well-struck parts of the legend was also what initially stood out to me. I tried to capture that as best as I could in the image. I had used that CCCS graded example you mention for comparison; I found its detail hard to accurately gauge in photo with the blotchy brassy colour. And yes, another candidate for the grading pile .

Appreciate the responses and hope everyone is doing well!
Pillar of the Community
1960NYGiants's Avatar
United States
666 Posts
 Posted 06/26/2020  5:54 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
1960NYGiants, the edges are pretty telling! I'm not too familiar with the term "burr", but I take it you're referring to the raised metal around the rim of the reverse, also visible on the obverse of the Robins token. An effect of punching out the flan?


Exactly. That little raised area around the edge. The more I look at your piece the more I like it. And the higher I think it would grade. These were poorly fabricated on purpose to evade the authorities. So strike detail is difficult as sole grading criteria. One must factor in edge condition along with extraneous marks from handling and originality of the surfaces. I'm now thiking AU58 to MS62. The only blemish I can see is the bright spot at RC of Commerce. Again - beautiful example.

The Robbins piece looks cleaned to me. Unless it is darker in hand.

Doug Carlson is indeed "colonialtokens". His knowledge on colonial tokens is probably top 5 - 10 among living numismatists.
LM of RCNA
Member of CATC
  Previous TopicReplies: 6 / Views: 1,643Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.3 seconds to rattle this change. Forums