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 Replies: 18 / Views: 4,906 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
591 Posts |
I haven't been looking at mercs for a while, but started perusing ebay again recently and I see that "Coins N Cards" is still up to his old tricks. I thought I'd share so folks are aware of this seller. He buys a coin, likely dips it, takes new photos under specific incandescent lighting (or so it seems) and then re-sells, often making out well. Perhaps other ebayers do this too. I brought this up back in February with other examples: http://goccf.com/t/367307I find this to be inappropriate and unscrupulous. In the example below, I think this is a blatant disservice to numismatics, in that this seller is taking what appears to be an original coin and stripping that original patina away. He is also boldly declaring the coin to be "Uncirculated"...the old "slider" game, "people try to charge MS prices for a nice looking AU hoping to fool people" http://goccf.com/t/194670). I noticed the example below because I recently had my eye on a nice naturally toned seemingly original 1916-S merc in upper AU, that I ended up winning, and I think I paid a little more for both natural toning and what looks like full bands (or close to it). 264959053858If this clown would have gotten a hold of that coin, he would have messed with it for sure! "To the eye of a true collector, originality is more important than shiny," declares Brahin. "Natural toning is a testament to the age and natural process that the coin has gone through. What makes antiques appealing is their antiqueness, a normal aging process of the items. The natural aging of a relic attests to its authenticity. If you saw an 18th-century original document that was a bright manila white, you would realize that something [was] wrong with it. You would expect an old document to show natural signs of aging. If you see an 18th-century silver coin that is bright white, it is suspect; or if it has bright purple toning, it means something is wrong." https://coinweek.com/us-coins/colle...oins-part-1/Here is one of his latest endeavors that I happened to notice; but this is more or less this guy's modus operandi. Original seller (and seemingly "original" coin): 203184496762  Current "Coins N Cards" sale (same coin): 264968449711  Edited by one_fine_dime
12/08/2020 11:29 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1018 Posts |
This seller is not the only one. Mikesmountainvalues is dipping and cleaning coins. Somehow NGC is grading them (very high grades) in a lot of cases. He is good at what he does, but it is destroying the hobby.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5393 Posts |
No different than what the TPG do with their Conservation services . Coins can be and are conserved all the time . Some individuals are Incredibly good at this and command 6 figure salaries . I would argue that although many coins are destroyed by poor restoration methods , many more are saved by proper methods . Edited by Pacificoin
12/08/2020 3:54 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
591 Posts |
Quote:No different than what the TPG do with their Conservation services. Coins can be and are conserved all the time. Some individuals are Incredibly good at this and command 6 figure salaries. I would argue that although many coins are destroyed by poor restoration methods , many more are saved by proper methods. So do you agree or disagree that coins with natural toning and/or mostly original surfaces are superior to dipped coins that have had the "original skin" chemically removed? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1373 Posts |
What caught my eyes for this post was the use of "original' coins" in the title. It's MY opinion that probably all pre-1900 coins have been cleaned at least once (if not several times), and at least half of the silver coins before 1950 might be in the same boat.
Years ago, polishing silver coins was "the thing to do" before displaying one's collection to others. Showing a 'dirty' coin was frowned upon. Now, things have changed; somewhat. Dipping coins is the new "cool way" to make coins look better. Both ways do basically the same thing but one is 'wrong' while the other is perfectly 'ok' to do.
I assume that any old coin I buy has been cleaned, whether I can tell or not; and I really don't care. If done correctly, either way is fine with me.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10034 Posts |
Grading company offering coin conservation is just another way these businesses make a profit. That is what businesses do. They know they are removing an original surface, but that is where the money leads them, so they do it. Despite what people would LIKE to believe, the TPGs are NOT solely about what is best for the hobby, they are about keeping their own business alive and making a living.
By offering great online resources, they improve their public relations and make even more. This is not evil. Its just business.
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Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts |
Sometimes, "bad" toning needs to be removed before it eats into the coin
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1613 Posts |
While on most occasions I would agree with you, there are rare instances where an individual outside of the professional grading business has the knowledge and ability to properly conserve a coin. Does the seller in question? That I could not answer as I do not own any from him, nor have I seen one first hand. The one reply I must agree with 100% is from atticguy. Assume that ALL coins in the raw prior to 1950 were cleaned. Even those with "original" patina as they also may have gone through proper conservation years ago.
ANA member - PAN Member - BCCS Member There are no problems only solutions - the late, great John Lennon
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Pillar of the Community
United States
591 Posts |
While I can respect many of your responses, they are really tangential to the topic. Can any of you honestly look at the original coin that I have posted above, which clearly has luster, rose/russet patina/toning (fully 'original' or not) and compare to the Cards N Coins version of the same coin (taken under incandescent light to make it appear to have some natural toning, but almost certainly simply a bright silver color now) - and say you prefer Cards N Coins version? Dipping necessarily removes some luster - agree? Luster is a huge factor in the appreciation and "value" of numismatic material. Also, regarding toning, from these pics, I would argue the original coin's toning actually helped to diminish the contrast of the scuff marks - which look more prominent to me now in the Cards N Coins version. Per PCGS Restoration ( https://www.PCGS.com/restoration):Toning PCGS Restoration will not remove original toning simply to make a coin white.
PCGS Restoration will never add toning to a coin.
In cases where PCGS determines that removing toning is necessary and desirable and will not detract from the coin, it may be done. This type of toning may be the result of improper storage, interaction with corrosive materials, or a stain due to an accidental spill. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10034 Posts |
Quote:
Can any of you honestly look at the original coin that I have posted above, which clearly has luster, rose/russet patina/toning (fully 'original' or not) and compare to the Cards N Coins version of the same coin (taken under incandescent light to make it appear to have some natural toning, but almost certainly simply a bright silver color now) - and say you prefer Cards N Coins version? I do not like tarnished coins at all, but that is beside the point here. The color you get form a "properly conserved" dip that TPGs do not seem to mind is definitely less actual-silver-colored than an original "blast white" mint surface luster. It is easy to see the difference especially when a dipped "blast white" and original mint "blast white" are side by side. I do prefer the mint luster for sure. If I owned a dime like this one, and it was in the condition shown in the first picture, I would have given it an acetone dip, used a porcupine quill to remove the spot of dirt at 2:00 and 5:00 on the OBV, and possibly (cannot tell from pics) taken the quill to the REV faces as well. Depending on what was left, I would probably see if anyone was interested in a tarnished coin for its color. I realize natural and slow tarnishing makes different colors than forced tarnishing. So if someone wanted to trade me an actual mint white one for the tarnished one, then they would be happy and I would to. If this was the ONLY possible 1916 dime I could get my hands on for my personal collection, then I would very slowly, in small incremental steps and precise positioning/application, subject only the tarnished areas to very dilute dipping solution (likely with a non-saturated Q-tip). I don't want to come back later and find a black coin. That's just me. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1373 Posts |
Quote:
Can any of you honestly look at the original coin that I have posted above, ... and say you prefer Cards N Coins version? one_fine_dime, I get what you're saying and lots of us follow the same outlook, but the coin collecting 'belly' holds people with all types of ideas. For example, only ONE person (the buyer) felt that the 'original' dime was worth $60. At this time, there are now TWO people who think it's now worth more than $60. We'll see by next Monday if there's anyone else interested in the 'shiny' version. Then again, EIGHT people thought that the original coin was worth at least $25, but still the same TWO (and only two) bidders feel the dime is worth $25 as it looks now. One of my best buddies collects deals with coins too, and he laughs at me when I show him some of the coins I buy (newer, especially clad coins). That's OK with me, though, as he's got his views on collecting and I have mine, but we're still buds. |
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Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts |
Simple things to know: Silver coins, when exposed to everyday sulphides in the environment, will invariably turn black. And the thing is, toning and "original surfaces" can be applied that fools the best of 'em, even BU...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
"Silver coins, when exposed to everyday sulphides in the environment, will invariably turn black." - I wonder if you would like to qualify that blanket statement. I have silver coins that my grandfather kept raw in a box for 30 years before I got them, in a house where they heated with coal, where he chain-smoked cigarettes, which I then put in 2x2s around 1972, and none of these coins are black after 80 years, nor have they been manipulated in any way.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1427 Posts |
This hurts to see  . What a waste of a hobbyist. Shake my head |
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Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts |
kbbpll: Take them out of the box and put them next to your fireplace, on an open windowsill, etc. Leave them there for 80 years-even a few-and changes will be evident and remarkable.
Edited by whatdowehavehere
12/10/2020 01:26 am
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Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts |
For instance: the place where I worked had rolls upon rolls of ASEs around the safe, Most were stacked, and opened at the top. I finally figured that it was the disintegrating foam rubber of the undercarpet making the top coins of the opened rolls every color of the rainbow, and then some. Those with the tops secured suffered no toning
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Replies: 18 / Views: 4,906 |
Posted 12/08/2020 3:36 pm
