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Is There Any Grade Level That "Market Acceptable" Coins Will Not Make?

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 Posted 12/13/2020  12:15 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Sharkman to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
My question may well differ based on series or issue.
My philosophical pet peeve is straight grading "market acceptable" coins that have been cleaned but adjudged not to require a cleaning details grade. It simply isn't calling a spade a spade.
That said, the fact is that some cleaned coins straight grade. Given contemporary practices way back when, coins were routinely cleaned. The entire Smithsonian gold collection was cleaned periodically during the 19th Century. Given market hostility to details grades, a whole lot of nice, collectible coins would become considerably less valuable without "market acceptable" grading.
I have MS63 and lower graded pre-Morgan coins that show evidence of earlier cleaning that are straight graded. Many cleaning marks are heavily toned over and don't detract much from the overall appearance. I have not seen this with 64s of the same vintage. And I wouldn't expect it with a 65.
Is there any grade level, 64, 65 or whatever that the TPGs don't assign to market acceptable coins?
I'm just curious. I would pick an attractive straight graded cleaned coin over an unattractive uncleaned one any day.
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JasonKflo's Avatar
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 Posted 12/13/2020  09:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JasonKflo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would say keep in mind many Silver coins Like Morgan's have been dipped or cleaned in the past . Probably where the term market acceptable comes from. I have a few morgans that have appeared to be lightly dipped in the past and it has appeared to keep there grades down a few notches . A 1883 S Morgan that is graded AU-53 but looks like AU-58 / it still has alot of natural luster though and has retoned some and a 1880 VAM 33a XF-45 that looks AU-53 maybe AU-55 . looks nice but appears to have been dipped. Has natural luster in areas still but a little to white for a xf-45 coin. Neither have the dull look of being harshly cleaned or over dipped so I think it was just enough to keep there grades down a notch or two.
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 Posted 12/13/2020  11:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Sharkman's issues raise a few of my own. Mine, I think, relate well to his. Maybe not? I expect I'll either be told in a friendly exchange, or this'll be moved by the Admins.

Although PCGS returned three similarly troublesome coins from my submission a few months back, I'll spare my reader and focus on one: a shilling dated 1787. The slab reads: Genuine / Cleaned-AU Detail / Great Britain S-3743 Without Hearts / 616800.92/39334350.

Now, "AU" is a clue. It tells me that, this coin spent most of its life collected. "1787" is a clue. This coin spent time in the 18th century. The slabbed artifact is a clue. To still be here, it had to spend time in the 19th and the 20th centuries as well. It has now seen one-fifth of the 21st century. Armed with these clues, under my Sherlock Holmes Deerstalker cap, my astute neurons hit upon the idea that the coin must have been cleaned in one of those four centuries!

I've owned it for the last 30% of the 20th century and all of the 21st, so that led me to suspect it was cleaned a long time ago. I craved a scientifically based ballpark estimate as to which century (or centuries) hosted the coin-cleaner(s). I would not pay the same premium for a coin cleaned last week as I'd pay for a coin cleaned in 1787, the year the delegates to the Constitutional Convention began to assemble, or the intervening eras. I don't think I'm alone in this sentiment. As @Sharkman notes, people in bygone eras managed the collectibles in ways we cock a brow at.

Inclined not the least to doubt the finding (the coin is lovely -- perhaps more so than it ought to be), I called PCGS to discuss the three slabs. I theorized that with their knowledge, skill, experience, and equipment, they ought to be able to lend a hand. Time leaves its mark even in tiny scratches. I offered to pay for the added scrutiny. The PCGS first contact went light-speed into her "Here's-the-best-way-to-professionally-blow-off-a-complaining-customer" mode.

In my typical shift to brilliance (I've done such brilliant shifts all my life) I stooped to complaining that she shouldn't confuse me with one who called to complain. I went to my corner to wait for a call-back from her supervisor. The supervisor grasped the concept quite well and handled it quite skillfully. I even avoided adding my brilliance, but it boiled down to "PCGS don't do windows." I'd still like to look out this clouded window to view what's on the other side.

Kevin
Edited by Kcm
12/13/2020 11:47 am
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kbbpll's Avatar
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 Posted 12/13/2020  1:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To me your question falls under the topic of "net grading" or "market grading". Is your "market acceptable" MS63 Morgan really "market acceptable" as a straight-graded MS63, or just "market acceptable" as "not cleaned/scratched/damaged bad enough" and then net graded as 63? To me it can't be both "not bad enough for details" and "the same as another MS63 that wasn't cleaned". Not sure if I'm making sense.

It seems like there would be an upper limit but the whole thing is such a gray area to me. MS65 they'd be saying it's "gem" but could a market acceptable cleaning and "gem" really go together? Overall I would prefer that they just give everything a technical grade, note any issues, and let the market decide acceptability.
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NumisEd's Avatar
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5177 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2020  5:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I suppose there is "cleaning" and then there is "CLEANING".
Carefully removing dirt and perhaps even toning to get an "as new" coin without leaving any traces of "cleaning" is obviously different from taking a scrub sponge and sanding the top layer of the coin to arrive at a shiny but scratched coin.
Edited by NumisEd
12/13/2020 5:39 pm
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