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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1186 Posts |
So I am currently in the process of organizing and labeling all of my new discoveries and I was hoping someone may shed some light on a question I have.
When is a coin considered a mule?
I understand that mules are made when an obverse or reverse die was used that was not originally intended for that year/set or for circulation strikes. But what about things like the 1949 A to denticle and 1949 A between denticle, would that not be considered a mule in a sense?
Anyway, I have 15 examples of a coin that has an obverse that was used by the previous year before it, and 15 examples of the original obverse that is supposed to be on it.
So in total, I have 30 examples of what I can only explain as a mule at this point that has an extremely convenient die marker to differentiate the two.
I know that this die marker was present in the previous year due to a broken device on either the master punch or the working punch (that I also have a good amount of examples of) and the examples in question have the exact same marker that is 100% identical in every way possible.
The previous year used a font that was fairly bold and had flat feet on the bottom of every letter.
I believe a few of the obverse dies were subject to a broken master punch or working punch that was transferred to the working dies but did not end up using all of the dies for that year.
The upcoming year, the mint started using a newer font style with an arched font that had indented arches on the feet of each letter.
during the minting of the new coin for the upcoming year, they ran out of obverse dies (mintage was a lot higher than the previous year) and used one of the obverse dies from the previous year that was subject to a broken master punch or working punch to continue to strike coins for the new year.
The end result, 2 different year coins showing the exact same die marker and font.
How do I know that the fonts are different? because I have examples of the "mule" with the die marker and different font, and examples of the same year the "mule" is without the die marker and the font that was supposed to be used. Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018. 2023 Recent Publications: Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024) |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
A true mule is when a drastic and obvious different die was used to create these coins, minor small variations are what they are and thus very little interest.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1186 Posts |
Quote:
minor small variations are what they are and thus very little interest. They may not have a drastic change like a frosted finish or what you typically find on a mule, but they are extremely easy to differentiate with a loupe when two examples are side by side which to many is fairly interesting considering it has been under everyone's nose for over 10 or 11 years and others have photographed it without actually realizing what it truly was (even in PCGS registry sets). Subtle as it may seem, once you see it you can't unsee it. Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018. 2023 Recent Publications: Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024) |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
Minor stuff is minor stuff if there was interest, it would not be quiet for these many years, one of the most recent interesting variation on Canadian coins is the 16 or 14 serrations on the rim of the toonies. This is much more interesting fact research and why this occurred, my guess is the RCM bought new presses a few years ago and they use a different collar |
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Valued Member
Canada
106 Posts |
This hobby does not adhere to a strict terminology or rules (which is not a bad thing).
One has to learn what others mean when they use a term (example: proof-like has at least 3 meaNINGS).
Term "mule" is mostly a marketing hype used to inflate a coin value.
In my opinion a "mule" is an *undesirable* combination of dies, effectively a spectacular error. No loupe needed to recognize one.
There are not many of those. The most noticeable are millennium map 25c and September and November "no denomination" coins.
On the other hand there are many coins of "obverse + reverse combination" varieties.
There was and is a common practice at the mint to reuse previous year dies for next year coin production.
It makes business sense because the coin still matches specifications.
In my observation, practically every time when there is a design change in obverse there is a combination variety.
I think there are more than 30 of those.
The latest one I found is 2008 Toonie that comes with both 2007 and 2009 obverse varieties.
Another source of varieties is the re-use of distinct PL dies for BS/NBU strikes.
Loon dollars from 2006 to 2010 have such varieties for every year.
P.S. A side effect of re-using previous year dies are "first day" coins that are made with ugly worn dies that I would not grade higher than MS60.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1186 Posts |
I think I understand now.
I was really just interested to know at what point does a coin get the mule designation compared to the run of the mill "Variety" designation.
Also, what I should have said originally was it can be found without a loupe due to the die marker being fairly big. However, with a loupe, you can see the different features more clearly.
I also have to disagree about the whole 2019 14 and 16 serrations being a lot more interesting. Yes, it is interesting as I have both examples as well as the 2010 examples I still think any new variety that has not been studied or has gone un-noticed should still be brought to light and let collectors have the opportunity to decide for themselves if it is interesting or not.
This variety I am in the process of documenting is actually just as easy to identify as the 2019 14 and 16 serration toonie, if not easier due to the large die marker on the obverse that can be found without any magnification, the toonie would need a loupe to count the serrations unless you have an eagles vision.
So putting them in a race to determine what would be better is kind of unnecessary considering they are both from completely different denominations altogether. I am confident that collectors would be just as interested in this variety as they are with many others, or maybe not as that is a choice that they would need to decide on their own since I can't make that decision for them, and just a friendly reminder John100 that's a decision you cant make for them either, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and interests.
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018. 2023 Recent Publications: Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024) |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5241 Posts |
Collectors don't collect on the basis of a definition. Even if people can agree on a definition (not always), just because something is technically a mule is not enough to gather interest from collectors. On the other hand, if you wrote a book that caught people's attention, who knows?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
Sure everyone is free to collect what ever, but if minor obverse were catalog as mules you will get newbies paying huge prices for a basic face value coin. A mule is like the 25 cent large beads, or the New Zealand dollar or ten cent reverse. I for one just for curiosity sake would like to know why there are two types of rims on our toonie, but continue you have passion in your research projects.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1186 Posts |
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but if minor obverse were catalog as mules you will get newbies paying huge prices for a basic face value coin. John100, now that is something I can agree with and that is why I was curious to know how and when a variety would go from a variety (minor or not) to the mule designation. So far I have come to the understanding that it all boils down to the severity of the change that occurred, like a proof obv paired with a circulation rev or vise versa. Quote:
On the other hand, if you wrote a book that caught people's attention, who knows? oriole, That is precisely what I am in the process of doing. Originally I was researching and documenting varieties and errors on modern Canadian 1 cent coins exclusively, but then expanded my catalog to accompany 5 cents and 10 cents. I do plan to add this variety into my catalog that this post was originally about and I do not want to call an interesting variety a "mule" and as john100 said, have a bunch of newbies paying too much for something that is miscategorized. On the other hand, I don't want to end up calling what should be called a mule, a lesser common variety, and have it under-appreciated if that is what it truly was. Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018. 2023 Recent Publications: Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024) |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1186 Posts |
I would also like to add, that even if it is not considered a mule, I would be fine with it. However, I'm pretty sure distinguishable die pairs have always had the interest of collectors like the Canadian large cents did. It's really not that often at all when you can visually distinguish the differences between dies on something modern.
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018. 2023 Recent Publications: Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024) |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
In the era of the large cents, it was normal practice for the pressman to repair dies and get all the use you can from the obverse, this creates all those different combos. Modern pennies where some years a billion are struck there is always a few minor tweaks, the large cents collectors surely are a deeply dedicated bunch in a good way
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5589 Posts |
JW007 ... I think that what you describe in your first few comments of this thread much more describe a "variety" rather than a mule. My heavens, if you were into early Vicky large cents and the varieties there, you would have 20 mules before you even got to 1884. You had a plethora of different Obverses amrried to previous or future year Reverses. I think that everyone has a pretty good idea of what constitutes a variety vs a mule. Designation of a mule, as opined above, just means more $$ for the seller.
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Valued Member
Canada
106 Posts |
JohnWayne007, your post have intrigued me. I used your hint "it has been under everyone's nose for over 10 or 11 years" and checked business strikes' obverse runs for all denominations from 2007 to 2011. None is showing the type of font change that you described.
Maybe another hint? What year was that?
As for collectors interest, I share your view on this topic. Though I do not consider obverse+reverse pairing combinations as a "mule", I am interested in those varieties and actively collect those. I also consider as varieties the modern PL/NBU coins that have different dies characteristics such as different device size, font, or beads size (all other than quality and polishing).
It seems that with advance of computerized engraving the PL coins were made from their own matrices rather than sharing a common hub with business strikes.
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Moderator
 Canada
10458 Posts |
Minor variations inherited from a master punch does not make a mule. Sometimes, the last digit of the date was added afterwards, to a master die. Otherwise you would not see this:  So there could be a flaw in the master punch, inherited to any number of master dies. "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1186 Posts |
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Does your list include mules of using the wrong collar die (with twoonies, as an example?) SPP, no not currently. My catalog consists of 1 cent, 5 cent, and 10 cent coins that have no mule listings but plenty of good varieties. Once this catalog is wrapped up for those 3 denominations and begins the publishing process, I will continue on with my research and do a separate catalog for the 25 cents, 1 dollar, and 2 dollar coins with their respective varieties included. I won't be doing any catalog for 50 cent coins or large dollars as I'm trying to keep my research focused on coins struck for circulation. I plan to do a new issue for both catalogs at least once a year with updates and new listings after both of them have been completed and on shelves. However, I will see where it goes when the time comes. Quote:
JW007 ... I think that what you describe in your first few comments of this thread much more describe a "variety" rather than a mule. My heavens, if you were into early Vicky large cents and the varieties there, you would have 20 mules before you even got to 1884. okiecoiner, I agree, I'm somewhat scared to start dipping into the Vicky large cents. I do have a couple but I feel that once I start I won't be able to stop as I am very thorough (and maybe a tad bit optimistic at times). I do also agree that what I have come across does seem to be more of a variety over a mule. I think it would be safe to say that it would fall under a Die Pair Variety and not a mule. Quote:
Maybe another hint? What year was that? Mice45, once I get the listings for each die pair finished I will post them up on here as there is more than one. One of the listings actually has not only a previous year obverse with the die marker, but it was paired with a doubled die reverse. Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018. 2023 Recent Publications: Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024) |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1186 Posts |
Quote:Minor variations inherited from a master punch does not make a mule. Sometimes, the last digit of the date was added afterwards, to a master die. Otherwise you would not see this SPP, would these same rules apply to a die made in the 2000's to the present years? I fully understand any type of damage to the master punch usually results in a variety. But, when you can confirm that the details on the obverse are the details used for a previous year and you then compare it to the same year and notice 2 completely different obverse designs I just thought maybe it would be the same scenario that creates "mules". Edit: what I am trying to say is the die marker I speak of is not even needed to distinguish the two different obverse dies used. Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018. 2023 Recent Publications: Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024) Edited by JohnWayne007
01/06/2021 10:07 pm
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Replies: 18 / Views: 3,603 |
Posted 01/06/2021 2:27 pm
