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Innovation Dollars In Proof And US Mint Sets

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 Posted 03/17/2021  09:51 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Hidalgo to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
What is the reason why there are no Innovation Dollars in US Mint Sets? And why are the Innovation Dollars sold separately instead of part of the annual proof sets?

Thank you in advance.

*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***
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Bud250r's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2021  10:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bud250r to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The mint can squeeze a little more money out of us
this way.
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Big-Kingdom's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2021  10:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
because the innovation dollars are not intended for circulation, and since NIFC, not included in the mint set which are examples of coins that circulated or had circulated in the case of the coins they do include. it's the qualifier of "authorized for circulation" that is the catch, the Innovation dollars aren't authorized for circulation, only collector sales.

also why they aren't included in the annual proof sets.
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 Posted 03/17/2021  10:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hidalgo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Big Kingdom. However, the law (?) does not explain why many Native American dollars, Presidential dollars, and Kennedy halves - which after a certain year - are still included in US Proof and Mint Sets.
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Big-Kingdom's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2021  11:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Native American dollars is a series within the authorized for circulation series of Sacagawea dollars, Presidential dollars and Kennedy halves were also authorized for circulation.

the problem comes in when the halfs and dollar coins all backed up at the fed reserve and banks because nobody wanted them, so they stopped striking them for circulation, BUT they could resume them if the need arises and send them out to the fed and banks again.
This isn't so with the innovation dollars. the authorization isn't there to strike them for circulation, only for issuance of numismatic coins. annual mint and proof sets are meant for coins that are authorized for circulation, higher quality examples for that years authorized coins.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th...ill/770/text

the catch is "numismatic coins" in the wording. The United States Mint produces circulating coins for commerce, numismatic coins for collectors, and bullion coins for investors. the annual sets are for circulating coins but supposed higher quality examples.
this was legislated into the "numismatic coins" category and it was done this way because if it hadn't it would have never passed, the last thing america and the banking industry wanted or needed were more dollar coins nobody wants to use.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2021  11:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Correct. The Innovation dollars are NIFC by legislation. The Kennedy half dollar and other baby dollars are de facto NIFC because the Federal Reserve is not ordering them from the Mint. They have more than enough on hand to satisfy what little demand they get from member banks.
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BadDog's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2021  11:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...the catch is "numismatic coins" in the wording.


Quote:
Correct. The Innovation dollars are NIFC by legislation.


I'm not so sure that the legislation precludes issuing the coins for circulation.

31 USC 5112: Denominations, specifications, and design of coins indicates for Presidential dollars

Quote:
(6) Treatment as numismatic items.-For purposes of section 1 5134 and 5136, all coins minted under this subsection shall be considered to be numismatic items.

and for Innovation dollars

Quote:
(5) Treatment as numismatic items.-For purposes of sections 5134 and 5136, all $1 coins minted under this subsection shall be considered to be numismatic items.

IMHO these are pretty much identical in meaning.

Again, 31 USC 5112: Denominations, specifications, and design of coins indicates that

Quote:
The dollar coin shall be golden in color, have a distinctive edge, have tactile and visual features that make the denomination of the coin readily discernible, be minted and fabricated in the United States, and have similar metallic, anti-counterfeiting properties as United States coinage in circulation on the date of enactment of the United States $1 Coin Act of 1997.

Sacagawea, Presidential and Innovation dollars all conform to this.

Finally, 31 USC 5112: Denominations, specifications, and design of coins says that

Quote:
In general.-Notwithstanding subsection (d)(1) and subsection (d)(2) and in accordance with the provisions of this subsection, during the 14-year period beginning on January 1, 2019 (or such later date as provided under subparagraph (B)(ii)), the Secretary of the Treasury shall mint and issue $1 coins to be known as " American Innovation $1 coins", that-


and

Quote:
(6) Issuance of numismatic coins.-The Secretary may mint and issue such number of $1 coins of each design selected under this subsection in uncirculated and proof qualities as the Secretary determines to be appropriate.


It seems to me that the US Mint decision to not include the coins in the annual mint and proof sets was solely their discretion and not due to any legislation indicating the coins were not intended for circulation. The law gives them the discretion on whether or not to include them in the annual mint and proof sets and they chose to issue a separate proof set and no mint set instead.

As far as not intended for circulation is concerned, this is just an industry/collector term. You won't find it any legislation that I'm aware of that indicates a coin is NIFC. When it comes to the innovation dollars, it's just a continuation of the Treasury decision to quit minting the Presidential dollars for circulation due to lack of demand. There's no demand for the Innovation dollars in circulation so they aren't produced for circulation. That doesn't mean they are precluded from being produced for circulation should the demand arise.


Quote:
...are de facto NIFC because the Federal Reserve is not ordering them from the Mint.


Also, I don't believe that the Federal Reserve submits orders to the US Mint for coins like it does for Federal Reserve Notes to the BEP. The Treasury via the US Mint responds to bank demand for coinage directly.

Edited by BadDog
03/18/2021 06:59 am
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 03/18/2021  11:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It seems to me that the US Mint decision to not include the coins in the annual mint and proof sets was solely their discretion and not due to any legislation indicating the coins were not intended for circulation
Well, yes, it is their discretion... by going with their tradition of having (current/former) circulating coins in the annual sets and not having NCLT coins them.

Think of the Innovation dollars as ongoing commemorative issues and then it makes sense. You do not see commemorative coins in the standard annual sets.
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BadDog's Avatar
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 Posted 03/18/2021  1:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Think of the Innovation dollars as ongoing commemorative issues and then it makes sense. You do not see commemorative coins in the standard annual sets.

Not really

This rationale applies equally to the Native American dollars as they commemorate some aspect of Native American achievement, yet the coins are included in the annual mint and proof sets.

Not to include the Innovation dollars is strictly the discretion of the US Mint. The law gives them this discretion and they use it as they choose to.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 03/18/2021  3:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, that is the point. They chose to follow their tradition. Think of them this way to see their logic and remember we are talking about the intent, at least from the Mint's point-of-view, where they assume they will never receive an order from the Federal Reserve for them.

The Native American dollars were fully intended to circulate. Cents, nickels, dimes, quarter dollars, and half dollars were fully intended to circulate. Just because some of them are de facto NCLT now does not change the intent. That being said, they are included in the sets.

The Innovation dollars were never intended to circulate. Modern Commemorative coins were never intended to circulate. Therefore, these are not included in sets.

I will concede to you that the law is not dictating this, as I can not find the supporting article or topic which said otherwise.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 03/18/2021  3:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For what it is worth...

I know at least three members who would complain (rather loudly and in multiple topics) if they included the Innovation dollars. They hated having the extra quarters and Presidential dollars. They want the old sets of yore that fit into one lens.

You know who you are, no need to put you on front street.
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atticguy's Avatar
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 Posted 03/18/2021  3:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add atticguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've tried to understand all the giggley-gook so far in this post, but I don't think my morning pills have kicked in yet.

One quick question from me........Are the Innovative Dollars legal tender? If I buy a roll from the Mint and keep 5-6 for me, can I use the rest to buy things with, or deposit into my bank account?

Thanks! It's time for my mid-day meds now; so I'll take them and wait for some responses.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 03/18/2021  3:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, they are most definitely legal tender, just the same as commemorative coins and platinum/gold/silver eagles. Of course, I would find it easier to spend the Innovation dollar than those latter examples.
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BadDog's Avatar
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 Posted 03/18/2021  6:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The Native American dollars were fully intended to circulate. Cents, nickels, dimes, quarter dollars, and half dollars were fully intended to circulate. Just because some of them are de facto NCLT now does not change the intent. That being said, they are included in the sets.


Only because these particular dollar coins were authorized by law before the Treasury's policy was not to issue dollar coins for circulation.

Here's a quote from a Jul 2018 Coin World article about the Innovation dollars

Quote:
Dollar coins struck since the beginning of 2012 in circulation quality are designated for numismatic sales only. On Dec. 13, 2011, then Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner imposed a moratorium on production designated for commerce distribution, after it was determined that some 1.3 billion Presidential and Native American dollars had accumulated in Federal Reserve contracted vault storage.


It's this policy, and not 31 USC 5112: Denominations, specifications, and design of coins, that makes the Innovation dollars a non-circulating coin.

It's again a policy decision by the current US Mint Director not to include the Innovation dollars in the annual proof and mint sets. Nothing more or less.

Whether or not all coin collectors agree with this policy decision doesn't really matter. I know that no one asked me, but personally I think it's waste, fraud and abuse for the Congress to mandate a coin that they know the Treasury will not mint for circulation in commerce because there is no demand for it.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 03/19/2021  11:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I already conceded that the law is not dictating this.

But is it not better for those who do not want the innovation dollars do not have to be forced to by them in annual sets? Asking for three other members.


Quote:
I think it's waste, fraud and abuse for the Congress to mandate a coin that they know the Treasury will not mint for circulation in commerce because there is no demand for it.
I disagree in part, because the dollars seem to be selling and making a decent profit.

However, I will say in my opinion the true fraud and abuse is that congress does not have the courage to eliminate the one dollar bill which will get these dollar coins into circulation.
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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 03/19/2021  3:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What is the reason why there are no Innovation Dollars in US Mint Sets? And why are the Innovation Dollars sold separately instead of part of the annual proof sets?


But the proof coins Do come in an annual set. a set of the 4 proof produced for each year..
Or am I missing something here?


Innovation-Dollars-In-Proof-And-US-Mint-Sets
Innovation-Dollars-In-Proof-And-US-Mint-Sets
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