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A Pep Talk About Errors And Varieties...

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Pillar of the Community
coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2008  10:42 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
First and foremost, Happy Holidays to one and to all. May your 2009 be brighter than your 2008.

I've been coming here answering posts for better than a year now, not exactly sure how long. I'm sure it's in here somewhere how long I've been around and hoe many times I've posted, probably more than I care to know, which is why I never looked.

Anyhow, I wanted to share some observations I've made over time:

1. Many here probably think I'm a grumpy old fart who has nothing better to do with his time than come here and torment the newbies. Far from it. I see this place as a breeding pool for the expert collectors of the future. Some people have a long road ahead of them, others are picking up on it very nicely and are answering more than they are asking. Not that asking is bad, but...

2. When you find something and are told it's nothing, what do you do with it? I can tell you what you should do with it. When you're told it's Machine Doubling - mark it. Stick it in your collection and use it as a learning source. It's your best reference guide. Print the thread you asked on, keep those in a notebook referencing the coins, and you've got the best free book you've ever not bought. Merry Christmas.

3. When you come here asking questions and a number of knowledgeable people chime in and agree with one another that you've got a damaged coin, take the advice you're given. Insisting they are wrong isn't going to change what you have.

4. Some people (many of us, and all of us were guilty at one time or another) tend to look to hard to turn something in their jar into something worth more than one cent. It's not that easy, really. There are hundreds of thousands of damaged coins to every true error, and 95% of the errors are picked out before they make it into mainstream circulation. Don't think you're not finding them because you're not looking hard enough...it's because they really are scarce, and you're not likely to find more than one bonafide error out of less than a hundred thousand coins.

5. Die varieties are generally easier to find than errors, because not only are they duplicated a number of times, but they are for the most part going to take a little magnification to see. They are fun because there's such thing as a 'set', even though that keeps growing. There are also other pieces out there for most every die variety known. Errors don't tend to have that sort of 'order'. So if errors begin to bug you because you can't find any, start looking for die varieties.

6. I know there is some disagreement about this, but it's the simple truth, regardless of what people might think...die cracks, small die chips, Machine Doubling, and die erosion are normal wear and tear parts of minting coins, are accepted as reality by the mint, and pass into circulation regularly. They are NOT errors, and aren't worth a hill of beans. If you want to collect them, that's your choice...but they truly are worthless, and you or your heirs will find that out when it comes time to sell your collection.

7. If it looks like it's probably damage, it probably is. FAR more cases of damage are posted here than anything that came out of the mint looking the same way it's posted here. A book on the minting process would be a VERY good investment on the part of everyone here who doesn't have one. Once you understand the process completely, you'll be able to answer more than half of your own questions.

8. I want this to remain a place for everyone who has questions to be able to post them. I want everyone who has a question to post it, regardless of how many thousand times the same question has already been answered...but be understanding of the following:

- If you ask the same question about the same effect ten times in a week, the answers are likely not to be as detailed the tenth time as the first.

- If you mark the junk as junk and refer to it later before posting another junk coin and asking questions about it, you might find yourself learning more and leaning less.

- This is designed as a learning environment. It's not really designed to be a dumping ground for every wierd coin you would rather have an instant answer on rather than doing a little research yourself. There are over a thousand threads here to search through for Machine Doubling, die cracks, and other forms of die wear and damage. Another post about the same thing only floods an already overrunning cup.

- Nobody is paid to be here, and everybody is welcome to join in. Just remember that first part when it takes a while to get the right answer to your question.

I am NOT singling anybody out, and I am NOT creating rules. I'm simply stating my equal opinion about what I've been seeing. Truthfully, a LOT of mire and only a little real learning, because there tends to be a VERY heavy concentration of what I would think should be obvious damage to anyone and continuous banging on the same subjects over and over again. Just food for thought...and I'll go back to answering.

Have a great holiday!
Pillar of the Community
WpgLwr's Avatar
Canada
1082 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2008  10:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add WpgLwr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You're right. We DO think you're a grumpy old fart.

Just kidding. Your points are good ones.

This is a fantastic community. And just like any other community, what makes it is the people. The beauty of it all is that even the shyest of the shy and the most unknowledgeable of the unknowledgeable can ask questions of people whose experience in the hobby is so great that they would be intimidated to do so in real life. The internet is a great leveling tool to facilitate learning.

However pupils should know one thing: you learn more when you keep your mouth closed and your ears open. Take the benefit of others' experience freely and use it to better your own knowledge, and defer to the experts because they've usually seen it before.
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rockdude's Avatar
United States
1807 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2008  11:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rockdude to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And if you know the answer to someones question, give it a shot, it's a good learning experience. If you are wrong, nobodies going to get mad and call you an idiot for giving the wrong answer. We might think it but you'll have your turn.
Pillar of the Community
coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2008  11:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One other thing I should probably have added before...

Some people here might just outright not like me, and I can accept that...it takes all types. My form of teaching is to tell you what's right and what's wrong, not to sugar coat what's wrong with praise and make every coin a winner. This tends to leave people very confused as to what has value and what doesn't. I don't give flowery, long explanations because either I have or someone else has before, and it's all here for the searching. I call a spade a spade, and I shoot from the hip. I'm not passive, and I don't mix facts with fantasy. Basically, I live by the following, and for the people who understand and respect my no-bull mannerism, they get along with it perfectly fine:

1. If it's junk, that's what I tell you it is.
2. If I know it, I say it.
3. If I don't know it, I stay quiet.
4. If it deserves praise, I give it. If your coins don't get my praise, see #1.
5. I'm serious about what I do. Teaching and foolishness don't mix.
6. Terms were devised by educated people who knew what they were doing. Don't butcher them.
7. There's a term for just about everything, and using the correct term is imperative.
8. If I might be wrong, I look it up before I say it.
9. If I don't find what I was looking up, I don't say it.
10. I don't mince words. I mean exactly what I say, and I only say what I mean.
11. I freely admit - and make a point of - accepting when I'm wrong, apologizing, and correcting my mistakes.

You see, I don't really care whether I'm a popular guy. I care more that the people who come here looking for answers get them, and get the right answers. It's the least I can do to feed the hobby that feeds me. I chose numismatics as my living. Most others here didn't, but it's all I have that feeds my family these days. So I take it seriously, and give my best to it. My best is to educate people with professionalism, serious and correct answers, and knowledge that the advice I give is sound and just.

And yes...I am a professional teacher (computer science). I have taught in two colleges, and teach numismatics at the ANA Summer Seminar every year. And really...I'm not hard to get along with. I know my facts because I've studied them for years. I don't waste my time to come here and argue with people, I come here to give correct answers and advice, and work very diligently to make sure what I say is correct. That's all.
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desertgem's Avatar
United States
860 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2008  12:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add desertgem to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Charles, A Happy Holiday and New Year to you and your family! I look
forward to your postings in 2009, and am sure I will have several #1
coins and maybe a few # 4

Jim
Valued Member
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tepritts's Avatar
United States
306 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2008  12:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tepritts to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Merry Christmas. Only been in forum since Oct. Thanks for all the help and time you spend on the forum. I look forward to hearing your opinions.
Valued Member
magusxxx's Avatar
United States
306 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2008  08:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add magusxxx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"And yes...I am a professional teacher (computer science). I have taught in two colleges, and teach numismatics at the ANA Summer Seminar every year."

Oh! I thought you just slept at a Holiday Inn last night. ;D
Bedrock of the Community
BadThad's Avatar
United States
19935 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2008  09:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Some people here might just outright not like me, and I can accept that...it takes all types. My form of teaching is to tell you what's right and what's wrong, not to sugar coat what's wrong with praise and make every coin a winner. This tends to leave people very confused as to what has value and what doesn't. I don't give flowery, long explanations because either I have or someone else has before, and it's all here for the searching. I call a spade a spade, and I shoot from the hip. I'm not passive, and I don't mix facts with fantasy. Basically, I live by the following, and for the people who understand and respect my no-bull mannerism, they get along with it perfectly fine:


Hummmmmm.....this is what I love about you man! It's that military background!

Chuck, thanks for all you do here at CC. I always enjoy reading your posts, I've learned a lot from you. Keep up the good work and have a great Christmas!
Lincoln Cent Lover!
VERDI-CARE™ INVENTOR
https://verdi.care/
Pillar of the Community
halfabustisbetter's Avatar
United States
1984 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2008  09:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add halfabustisbetter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think you are great--your experience and knowledge base are one of the big reasons this community thrives. I think you've come to realize over the course of time that your expert position does actually bring with it some responsibility in shepherding the innocent or accidental hobbyist into becoming the discriminating collector of the future.

Your message may be lost on some, but the fact that you continue to provide it in whatever form is extraordinarily valuable to those who choose to listen.

Thanks for all your insights.
Bedrock of the Community
Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2008  1:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
6. Terms were devised by educated people who knew what they were doing. Don't butcher them.
7. There's a term for just about everything, and using the correct term is imperative.

Thank you for those two. A lot of confusion and misunderstanding can be avoided by using the proper terms. It can be forgiven in a newbie asking a question who doesn't know the proper terms. but it can be quite annoying from someone who should or does know better but who fails to do so out of laziness.
Pillar of the Community
KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2008  1:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If I might be so blunt--I'd know a lot less about Lincoln errors and varieties without your contributions here.
Your gift of knowledge to our forums has been invaluable.

Regarding beginners and damaged coins, it would be very useful to have a post which showcases the common array of damaged coins that are mistaken for real varieties/errors. I imagine a lot of collectors see something and simply get excited because there is no definitive reference for the damaged stuff. It's an understandable response when error books and Web sites focus on real errors/varieties, and collectors look for anything which resembles those coins. Hence the ongoing discussion of MD coins. To that end, I do recall some very nice comparison photos of doubled dies vs. MD.

As defense of our forums here and beginners everywhere, I've noticed a general openness of collectors to learn, with less certitude of opinion here based on wrong information. A little information can be a dangerous thing if you base your whole mindset upon it--in any discipline. Because of this, I'm rather skeptical of my own opinions so I'll continue to weed out wrong concepts I may have about errors and varieties. Several forums I know simply do not have the benefit of your expertise--which makes your contributions here all the more noteworthy, despite the ongoing noobish questions.

Happy Holidays to you Chuck and everyone here!
Pillar of the Community
copper nickel daddy's Avatar
United States
2224 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2008  3:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add copper nickel daddy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Charles,

I have been on this forum for close to a year now, and I have learned a great deal from many on this site. But, none more so than from yourself! I greatly respect your opinions and views, and when there is an odd item posted on here that I have no idea about, I eagerly look forward to reading your viewpoint. I refer to your website more than any other on the 'Net. Keep on doing what you are doing, as you truly are training a new generation of collectors (and even a few collectors getting a bit older like myself)!
Pillar of the Community
xshift's Avatar
United States
2669 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2008  02:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xshift to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a rare person who freely admits when he/she is wrong... or keep silent because they are not entirely sure or can't find the source to quote or that they remember.

Even rarer is someone who simply states a fact without judging. There's a big distinction there that few see (or read).

Chuck, simply, you're an asset here.. a big one. I'm already blaming you for my very-full list of bookmarks on my browser.. Merry Christmas, and we look forward to reading more of your expertise in '09


Quote:
this is what I love about you man! It's that military background!


hmm.. is it just us grunts who know that tell-it-how-it-is-and-don't-take-prisoners attitude?! Maybe we should ask Forum Mom & Dad to make a coin boot-camp section
Valued Member
junjiesalvador's Avatar
Philippines
212 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2008  03:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add junjiesalvador to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are just doing great coppercoins. Happy holidays and may you have a prosperous new year.
Here's a toast.
junjie
Pillar of the Community
foundinrolls's Avatar
United States
3507 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2008  2:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Chuck,

Happy Holidays! Have a GREAT 2009!

Everyone needs to go out to their favorite X-Mart....buy one of those $3.98 picture frames....then print Chuck's first post.....then frame it...finally...hang it up in a prominent location....

There is actually a philosophy in that post that allows us all to get a better idea as to just who Chuck is.

Chuck, we all learn from you!

Have Fun, My Friend!

Bill
Moderator
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2008  3:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You want to see who Chuck is? Go look at the "Picture the Poster" thread.

Chuck ain't old enough to be a "grumpy old fart" yet, though. Not many of us are blessed with the skill, and cursed with the drive (I say that deliberately) to become a world-class expert and a world-class artist before the age of 40.

I'm on board with the grumpy part, though.
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