High Quality, New Generation Forgery? 1914-1918 Chinese Silver Yuan

swamperbob I fully agree with you that the seller is a thief, but the reality is that little can be done unless ebay or authorities take action and make examples out of these forgers. Doesn't seem like ebay cares as I still see multiple listings every week of high-grade suspect coins.

This state of affairs is probably endemic to our hobby already and near impossible to eradicate, either we learn how to cope with it through education and knowledge or just switch hobbies. Looking into comics (lots of spec) now, don't think there are fakes flooding the market from the Youtube videos.

As much as you can point the fingers at counterfeiters, a point to be made is that because the demand exist, that is why it is almost impossible to eradicate counterfeits. Whether if it is greed or ignorance or whatever it is, you cannot stamp out supply if the demand exists.

Since money talks, let's say if the buyer pays a small fee for a broker (i.e. 3%) for an opinion. If it is indeed a crude counterfeit, the seller's item is confiscated and money is refunded to buyer.

Bob in all honesty, the more tools we give out to supposedly educate collectors, this in turn also educate counterfeiters. It is a vicious cycle. I agree that simple diagnosis is key to avoid cheap counterfeits, i.e. magnetic test, weight, diameter, SG gravity. This would have easily worked out 10 years ago. Not today.

The rise of super counterfeits is just too dangerous and in my opinion - it would be best to leave it to professionals. With the market washed with too much money, there's never been a better time for crooks to reinvest in upgrading their wares to make even more money.

swamperbob: I cannot see how much more expensive it is to produce a super counterfeit. I reckon the cost of counterfeiting a generic coin is less than 10, if not 5 cents. I own a counterfeit 1 yuan and at the time when I got it, the exchange rate was 12 US cent. A crown perhaps will be a bit more, perhaps a few dollars. I cannot imagine it to be a lot higher. Granted, the overall cost will be higher as the forger can only strike a few instead of mass produce but that matters little. For argument sake - let's say an original is a $1000 coin. Striking just a set of 10 and selling it roughly at that price is perhaps more than a few months of income. That's striking filthy rich and much easier. The most recent example that I can think of is a counterfeit Hong Kong 1866 half dollar. That's easily a 4000+ dollar coin in UNC. I saw at least three sold for at least 1000+ each and I'm sure whoever bought them thought they got a bargain.

I still cannot agree on the idea of putting everything on the plate for education. That's the equivalent of putting a blueprint online of how to make a weapon. If used for the right purpose, it will be beneficial but on the other hand, it can backfire big time. This reminds me of a famous Chinese discussion on Ming dynasty vases which sell for millions of dollars. A professor once gave a lecture of how to tell the difference between a counterfeit and a genuine vase. In particular the two keys were the clay used and the color. Needless to say - it made it a lot harder to authenticate after that.

In my opinion, the investors are precisely the problem. Would they care about the hobby? My bets are no as long as they make money. Are they washed in money? Clearly. Would educating them help? To some extent but I don't think so either. Of course, I don't expect experts to get everything right either. But I'm certain they would catch more than +95%. To say that adds to cost is quite laughable when super counterfeits are easily in excess of 1000 dollars and a cost of 20 dollars for argument sake is quite negligible. This in particular is beneficial for countries outside of US or other countries where there are no major TPGs.

That's my 2 cents but until then, counterfeiters are still making a killing on ebay while this discussion goes on.

gxseries Some critical points of clarification and some definitions need to be added to this discussion.

I do not believe that many "Super Counterfeits" actually exist at this time. A super counterfeit would be one that escapes the in hand process of detection by an expert authenticator who is intimately familiar with the subject coinage using all of the scientific and historical tools available to him right now.

Super Counterfeits are not numismatic forgeries that sell on venues like ebay based on photographs alone. The coin that started this thread does not fall into the category of "Super Counterfeit". It is a passible fake but still detectable rather easily in hand. I have yet to see in hand what I would describe as a Super Counterfeit that came from ebay. Some of the 1847 UK Gothic Crowns are considered by many to be "super counterfeits" but they are actually easily detected in hand by experts familiar with the originals.

I also need to point out that a TPG 30 second inspection is not an expert authentication. It is usually done very well and it is obviously much better than nothing but the published success rate for TPGs is roughly 95% as you indicate. That is a great batting average but very poor for an "expert authenticator".

No human can possibly authenticate every kind of coin that exists or has ever existed. Authenticators know and acknowledge their limits. Some tests are almost universal because they apply to 99% of coins but those tests alone are often not adequate. Interpretation of test results against actual ranges of variation (tolerances) is part of authentication and requires very specific historical data about mint operations at the time of production.

The only way to produce an actual super counterfeit would be to duplicate the original manufacturing process using identical materials and methods including the metal alloys. Every step in every process would have to be done using the original equipment or duplicates capable of replicating exactly what the original apparatus did. Shortcuts taken by forgers to decrease their costs or ease production are typically where errors originate. This process of course would produce a perfect copy - undetectable in every way possible. The cost would be very substantial.

Now, do I consider myself an expert authenticator? Not for all types of coins. I do consider myself an expert in my own area of specialization. I was trained in general techniques of authentication so I am good in most areas but not expert.

I also need to point out that I have never indicated that it would be beneficial to publish every clue or test that can be used in authentication because some data are too sensitive to disclose. I will discuss clues that are already published or have become common knowledge in authentication. The field is constantly expanding the database.

Education of coin collectors needs to be enhanced all around. There are basic rules and concepts that are rarely mentioned but which if followed would damage the sales of 95% of all forgers. They begin with and focus largely on how a person acquires coins and the steps he needs to follow to insure against fraud.

Most young collectors start with coinage in circulation. They need to know that they will encounter counterfeits and altered coins in circulation. They need to study what they collect. If they do not do so, they are accumulators or hoarders of coins. They should read and explore all resources to know everything possible about what they collect. Knowledge beforehand about what they want is indispensable.

Collecting from circulation is of course too limiting in general and people branch out and specialize. For many this is done too rapidly and without a plan of action. Buying at a premium from dealers is usually the only way to proceed for coins that no longer circulate or circulate elsewhere in the world. So dealers are essential. But be careful in the selection.

Dealers can also be very useful to a novice if the dealer allows him to study the coins for sale. Getting to know what you want to collect by in person inspection is very critical. Do not always accept advice about what you should collect. The decision is personal and tastes vary.

One of the first points that beginners need to know when selecting a dealer, is NEVER to buy any coin that can not be returned for a full refund if it is found to be altered or a counterfeit. Make sure the length of the return interval allows for inspection (done in-hand by someone who is capable) after purchase to verify that the coin is authentic. Not all coins need an expert authenticator just someone to protect the interests of the beginner at his own level of involvement.

Once the novice encounters a venue like ebay, he needs to know what his own responsibilities are and how to select the good from the bad in sellers.

When buying on ebay or any similar venue make sure the seller is trustworthy. Look at and read all feedback. If a seller has 100% positive feedback for selling only inexpensive trinkets - do not trust his first coin offering if it is a very rare $1000 range coin. That is a red flag clue. Look for experience with coins of a similar nature before bidding. Also know the rules of the site and make sure the seller follows them.

The rules for returns are super critical. NEVER buy from a seller who will not pay full shipping costs on a return BOTH ways. Many sellers engaged in fraud include all actual costs and profit in the shipping costs alone. Say for instance the counterfeit dollar or Yuan costs 10 cents to make. The seller auctions the coin for 99 cents or 99 dollars expecting that amount to be returned. He charges the buyer his actual costs for packing and postage plus $2. He sends the coin and it is returned. If he does not pay for shipping both ways he gets his coin back and pockets the $2 as profit. That's all he needs if he can do it 1000 times a day using cheap local labor (presumption being that he operates in the third world).

If the seller does not know what he is selling and can not or will not answer any questions you have - avoid him. Patience is an asset on ebay. A better coin always appears sooner or later and so will a better seller. Haste makes waste.

NEVER expect a bargain on ebay or anywhere else. Know the value of the coin you want and set limits. Never bite for a below market BIN price. You will regret it.

Absolutely do not buy from sellers located in countries where forgery is legal until you consider yourself to be an expert at the target coin. I am not being racist or elitist just pragmatic. Some cultures promote the manufacture of counterfeits and protect their own citizens in dealings with foreign nationals.

Finally buy only from sellers who follow the ANA rules, including a lifetime guarantee of authenticity.

If beginners would just follow the process outlined above it would take a bite out of forgers sales.

Regarding speculators and investors - they are not collectors because they have only one motive profit. I would like to see them out of the hobby. They have produced nothing that improves the hobby in any way.

The examples of forgeries that have sold are coins that would be returned if buyers just followed the principles I set above. What gxseries is describing are sales to uneducated buyers or greedy thieves planning to resell their purchase at a profit. Educating the honest buyers is the precise point. They need to recognize the junk fakes and return them in every case.