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 Replies: 14 / Views: 3,722 |
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New Member
United States
34 Posts |
Found another counterfeit 8 reales. This one is obvious but the patina looks very old. This coin only weights 25.5g with small diameter 38mm. SG is only 10.26g/cm3 (containing only 87% silver). This could be due to sea salvage. But what given away is the coin edge. There are two discontinuity 180 degree part. But the edge pattern is reversed on the opposite side of the coin. Is this a contemporary counterfeit coin? What is the motivation? Or this is something made recently to fool collectors.    Edited by hjian
08/03/2021 7:33 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
In my opinion it is more than likely a Numismatic Forgery.
Have you checked the specific gravity? Done an XRF to detect gold?
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New Member
 United States
34 Posts |
Swamperbob:
Yes, SG is only 10.26g/cm3.
I didn't bother with XRF test unless you think it is worth to do it. I will probably return it to the seller.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I would return it and wait for a better looking example.
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New Member
United States
34 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
a sea salvage piece, is real to me
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New Member
United States
34 Posts |
Sea salvage won't change the coin edge. The edge pattern is reversed, which is usually seen in counterfeit coins.
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
The edge pattern is reversed, which is usually seen in counterfeit coins. Not so agreed. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
684 Posts |
At 25 +/- gm it is a fake. Very soft details and PLUS ULTRA is too strong.
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New Member
United States
34 Posts |
This post has some information. Many 8 reales with reversed edge design were stuck on debased planchets. ((((((((()))))))) http://goccf.com/t/367996For the reversed edge to happen, one edge die would have to be rotated 180 degree against the other edge die. Would this mistake happen at the mint? Edited by hjian
10/07/2021 11:02 am
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New Member
United States
34 Posts |
Just found the answer to the revered edge design from jfransch in the old forum. "Up to 1763 it is common to see the edge design change direction on Mexico and Guatemala Pillar 8s. You do not find this feature on 8s from the other mints. " http://goccf.com/t/133160&whichpage=2Edited by hjian
09/20/2022 3:44 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
Just a quick note
As pointed out by Hijan above, it is common in pre 1763 Pillar dollars from Mexico for the edge design to reverse at the overlap points. The source for that info is "The Milled Columnarios of Central and South America" by Frank Gilboy, one of the best reference books out there though hard to find today due to its limited printing of only 500 copies. This information is also found in the Brad Yonaka book "A Variety Guide to the Silver and Copper Coinage of the Mexico City Mint 1732-1771 (pages 35-36)
As for real/fake, coin could be real with extreme environmental damage (sea salvage or land burial) or a counterfeit to fool collectors, hard to tell from a photo. Take it to a jewelry store and see if they will XRF it for free with one of their machines. No trace gold would be the determining factor.
Either way, it is an ugly example and I would follow Swamper Bob's advice and return it and hold out for a nicer example.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
...extreme environmental damage... Either way, it is an ugly example IDK, I know you have a fabulous pillar collection (even your couple wreck pieces are rather choice)... but the central detail is bold, there's no egregiously deep pitting. I don't think it's a bad piece at all. But forgetting about any personal preference... assuming genuine, even "as is" without a wreck COA, this piece brings at least $250 now. That edge overlap IS a bit strange-looking (a reversal, as it should be, but hard to tell exactly how long it is). Also, both mintmarks obviously have a weird look (particularly the o above the left M)... though seawear and the salvage process can do funny things to a coin's surface. That said, from the obv/rev surfaces, overall I see a genuine wreck piece. This is a plentiful wreck date, with good numbers from the Rooswijk, Hollandia and Reijgersdaal. SG is not far enough off to be concerned and 25.5g looks right for the amount of seawear. Either way, the coin's not going back b/c this thread's from a year ago! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
Ha!
Didn't see the date of the original post.
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New Member
United States
34 Posts |
Thanks for all the helpful comments. I have returned the coin a year ago. Recently, I purchased the second one and surprisingly, the edge pattern is still reversed!!
So I researched harder this time, find that old forum from 2011 and shared it here. :)
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Replies: 14 / Views: 3,722 |
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Posted 08/03/2021 7:11 pm
