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 Replies: 37 / Views: 3,041 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4472 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3848 Posts |
Quote:
Slider I dont think he said it was proof.
Alot of us are saying it looks proof like from the pictures. That is because it was described and sold as the only 1880-S proof morgan in existence. The price was way too high to justify the label error. I think numismatic student thought he was receiving a proof. Suffering from bust half fever. Want to learn how to attribute early half dollars by die variety? Click Here: http://goccf.com/t/434955Shoot me a PM if you are looking to sell bust halves. |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
11917 Posts |
It's great that some of you were able to find the coin online, but by posting the holdered grade prematurely it keeps others from providing an unbiased opinion of the coin. Maybe you could have waited the normal 48 hours. But since the cat is out of the bag, why do you think that it can't be a proof? The coin overall looks very sharply struck. The area marked in the picture below in the obverse field to me looks a lot like a proof surface with die polishing marks. In any event, I thought it merited a look in hand and a chat with ANACS to verify if it is indeed a proof.  IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5686 Posts |
Again I ask, has ANACS ever designated a proof coin to have PL surfaces? That's why I lean towards this being a labeling error.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3674 Posts |
I may be in the minority, but I don't believe that any of the branch mints struck actual proofs in that era. I believe they took production dies, basined them to do specimen strikes, and did so. These seem similar to Canadian specimen strikes, rather than actual proofs, or to the 1964-D Kennedy specimen strikes. The Kennedys were struck with hand selected business dies that were specially polished, and were struck twice on one of Denver's old presses.
For 1880-S, what occasion would explain any type of special strike? It was just an ordinary production year of a third year coin design in an established branch mint.
I'm still at MS-62 PL.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11917 Posts |
According to their website PL is a designation for business strikes. In that sense it is a labeling error. But that misses the point. The question is was there a valid reason for ANACS to designate this as a proof. I can't tell from the pictures, and as someone suggested earlier, I reached out to ANACS yesterday about whether they meant to grade this coin a proof. I would like to hear what they say and see the coin in hand.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
The marks on the obverse look like bag storage damage to me along with the typical bag rub on the high points.
I would have said MS62PL prior to the reveal.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11917 Posts |
I think many people use proof and specimen interchangeably. Some people believe that there must be a mint record intending the issuance for a proof to exist, but records disappear. Some believe that proofs must be struck at the Philly Mint because only they had the facilities to Mint proofs. Still others believe that branch mint proofs were struck in Philadelphia using mintmarked dies. Everybody has an opinion and there is little consensus. We all have to decide for ourselves I suppose until an idea takes hold and most adhere to that definition.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11917 Posts |
I think dave700x's question, why is a proof coin bagmarked? is a valid question. Seems more and more likely that it is mislabeled. We'll see.  IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4472 Posts |
Quote:
The question is was there a valid reason for ANACS to designate this as a proof. On the Morgan's all the dies were made in Philadelphia and shipped to the local branch, and the local branch put in the dates and mint marks for the business strike. For the OP coin to be a branch proof the 1880 Philadelphia proof dies would have had to be shipped to SF and the mint mark added because the local branches did not make dies. I grant you that the OP coin has a bold strike, but the rims do not appear to be from the 1880 proof dies. If the coin was not struck from the 1880 proof dies, it does not matter what ANACS grades the coin as it would not be a proof. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3848 Posts |
To think that this coin is the only 1880 S proof known, and that there are no records for it is unlikely. This coin does not have the strike, nor the surface quality of a proof. Looks like a regular business strike.
I am curious to see what ANACS has to say. I hope it is a proof, and that you scored a good price for it.
Suffering from bust half fever. Want to learn how to attribute early half dollars by die variety? Click Here: http://goccf.com/t/434955Shoot me a PM if you are looking to sell bust halves. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
I'm sure ANACS is aware of this coin already being a GEN 7 blue label it has been around a while (about 15 years). It has not been the topic of discussion on VAMworld 2.0 but I'll bet it was on VAMworld 1. If I were you I would contact John Roberts as he is the Morgan dollar expert at ANACS and one of several at VAMworld as well. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1694 Posts |
The face hit doesn't look as bad in the second pic though
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
Any feedback from ANACS on this one?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11917 Posts |
I haven't heard back but it was thanksgiving after all. I'll give it through this week and maybe follow-up.
I did get the coin in on Saturday but I can't get the pictures to reflect what the coin looks in hand. It is a light yellow with orange along the rims. The devices look frosted with the fields polished to a mirror finish and a lot of chatter. It does look like the fields of the dies were polished to a degree greater than what you would find in an early strike with fresh business strike production dies. The fields have that really reflective polished look that proof Ikes display. But like you pointed out, there are bagmarks which scream: why?
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Replies: 37 / Views: 3,041 |
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Posted 11/23/2021 10:25 am
