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When Are Doubled Die Coins Not Struck Doubled Die?

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 Posted 12/10/2021  12:02 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Spencerj72 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Seems like an insane question but I would really love to know the answer. I find coins with what looks mirror image of a known doubled die coin with one exception the devices doubling will be weaker or in other words the first press looks as thought it was cut more deeply than the device atop it yet other times the doubling will be the same depth?
Edited by Spencerj72
12/10/2021 12:32 am
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mrwhatisit's Avatar
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 Posted 12/10/2021  05:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mrwhatisit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It kinda makes me wonder if you are describing Machine Doubling or Die Deterioration Doubling where both have that steplike look to it.
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silverwolf's Avatar
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 Posted 12/10/2021  05:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silverwolf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
all coins struck for circulation are not struck twice.
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 Posted 12/10/2021  06:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spencerj72 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm well aware that not all are struck twice and no I'm sorry but (II) isn't md
I'm speaking of almost complete separation
When I say a mirror image I'm speaking a mirror image only difference is instead of the devices being same height one sits lower but can at some times have sections or pieces of one or more show as equal where the majority as stated above sits lower
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 Posted 12/10/2021  06:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spencerj72 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And let me go ahead and say it no it's not shadowing Die Deterioration lamination problem post mint stutter strike double strike nor is it Pareidolia
Thanks but this is going to take real thought something a little more complicated than the normal go to answers
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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 12/10/2021  07:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, when you say 'mirror image' are the letters and numbers appear to be backwards?
Edited by Dearborn
12/10/2021 07:37 am
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nfine's Avatar
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 Posted 12/10/2021  07:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nfine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
When Are Doubled Die Coins Not Struck Doubled Die?


Never.
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Dearborn's Avatar
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Big-Kingdom's Avatar
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 Posted 12/10/2021  09:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the answer to your question is in here, https://doubleddie.com/58222.html

And I'd say it would have been helpful had your title and the question been worded differently.
Edited by Big-Kingdom
12/10/2021 09:05 am
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 Posted 12/10/2021  09:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add VestigeWolf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
LOL Dearborn. Doubled die coins are not struck doubled die when the die itself is not doubled.
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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 12/10/2021  09:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
LOL Dearborn. Doubled die coins are not struck doubled die when the die itself is not doubled.

I know the difference.
I was referring to the context of the question itself. Putting a double negative in a question automatically makes it a positive.
such as, If you were asked:
Is it not true that you didn't take a breath yesterday?
in this case you would have to answer yes, but take away the word 'NOT' - you would have to answer no.
But, if you answered No to the question the way it was asked, then you would be essentially saying that "Yes, I didn't take a breath yesterday"
Edited by Dearborn
12/10/2021 10:37 am
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 Posted 12/10/2021  09:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spencerj72 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all for participating I will try and address all. Ok so by mirror what I'm trying to describe is if you were to take a picture of a coin such as I'm describing and the well known example superimposed them you would find they align in every way so in answer to your question no the devices are not a reverse image. Apologies for the wording of the title but as you can see the question in its self is difficult to describe. Ok so who is to say the die isn't doubled because this is the ultimate question. Let's look at it this way couldn't the die be doubled and also be a light strike from adjustment, couldn't it also be a doubled die while being greedy packed therefore showing a faint second device? So the other answer is not "never" making this positively a difficult question
Edited by Spencerj72
12/10/2021 09:55 am
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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 12/10/2021  10:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, lets take the famous 1955 Doubled die Lincoln Cent.
The doubling on that coin was caused by it being engraved onto the die twice and slightly rotated.
Now using that die in the normal manner, the result would be a doubled die, BUT what if, during the strike of that coin, the press bounced and rotated slightly again. Then I would think you would end up with a doubled, doubled die coin. (with the second doubling being much weaker.)
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Big-Kingdom's Avatar
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 Posted 12/10/2021  11:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
there's 8 classes of doubled dies, 9 if you include hybrid doubled dies which involve two classes of doubled dies on the same die.

There isn't any real doubled die outside of these classes of doubled dies, because then it's not a doubled die. it DDD or MD, or other forms of Mechanical Doubling or even a second strike.

the reason I say the question could be worded better is because people have spent lifetimes researching doubled dies, how they happen, what is a doubled die, what each type looks like..... and what is machine caused during striking, and how to tell the class of doubling it is. If you can't nail down what class it is, then it's likely NOT a doubled die.

Who is to say the die isn't doubled? the researchers that have spent their lives researching doubled dies, that's who.

yes, you can have a doubled die WITH a light strike from a power surge, or adjustment strikes. Yes you can have a doubled die with MD or DDD also present. You can have a doubled die Greaser. That would be a doubled die with another type of issue also.
Still it's either a doubled die where the doubling is on the die itself, that falls into one or more of the classes of doubling, or it's just not a doubled die.

Edited by Big-Kingdom
12/10/2021 11:55 am
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Big-Kingdom's Avatar
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 Posted 12/10/2021  11:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the 1955 doubled die is Class I doubling, or Rotated Die Doubling. now IF something like a cam shaft broke or the die came loose and rotated a bit, there might be enough shift to bounce the die, that would be a 1955 Doubled die, Class 1, WITH Machine Doubling, and might appear as 4 strikes even, if it got that far off when the die got loose and rattled. it would not be a new doubled die though.

the "poor mans 1955 doubled die" is Die Deterioration Doubling. it looks nothing like the 1955 doubled die, class 1. Technically you could have the class 1 and the DDD present on the same coin in a very late die state of the 1955 doubled die before the die was retired.
Edited by Big-Kingdom
12/10/2021 11:53 am
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 Posted 12/10/2021  12:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add VestigeWolf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry Dearborn, I thought you were being humorous.
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