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 Replies: 31 / Views: 3,995 |
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Valued Member
United States
164 Posts |
In reading the entire article, it appears that the person who bought the coin wanted to prevent the dealer from hanging himself and thus lied about the source of the coin. I am sure the collector meant this to be humorous.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
858 Posts |
I have read this article and agree the customer should have not lied to the dealer. However, it is not wrong for him to profit on the coin from his hard work. Sometimes in life you win, sometimes you lose. The dealer should have looked at the coins more closely, but did not. I do not think the lying was proper, he should have went to a different dealer and told the truth. Think back to the orginal customer who turned in the coin, I agree that the dealer most likely would not have contacted the customer if he found the coin later while looking through the coins. People who are not educated on coins are relying on the integrity of the dealer to give the dealer to give them a fair price for their collection. About a year ago, when silver was close to $20 an ounce, my wifes father and I took his fathers coin collection to two different dealers; one was a refinery. This dealer only offered silver melt value. As I looked around there were bags of silver dollars, halves, and quarters behind the counter. I asked him if he looked for key dates or just melted them, he said he did not look through them. I knew this had to be a lie, but kept my mouth shut. Of course, he looked through them, that is the best part of the business and that is what makes it so profitable. All in all, lying is unethical, but I do not think the customer is in the wrong. Atthe end of the day, both parties are happy - the dealer got rid of of some junk silver for a nice price and the customers hard work paid off by looking closely at the coins. A pat on the back to all legit dealers and customers here - performing a good act is a reward in itself!
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10284 Posts |
Let me see if I get this right ... A customer bought a number of coins from a dealer, got lucky with an overlooked coin in the lot and sold it for a huge profit to another dealer. The stuff in between is not as important in my opinion, such as lying to the dealer and getting it graded and the car breaking down. Although, lying is never good no matter what. The buyer probably just blurted out a story  so not to have any problems with the dealer wanting to get it back. An undesirable human shortcoming, but the shop was probably a convenient place to go and get an opinion.So where is the problem? I owned an Antique business for over 10 years. My sources for inventory were from all different places. I had what I called "house calls" where people called me to come buy their stuff. I went to auctions, I bought from other shops. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you in this business. I never lied to a customer, but I don't go out of my way to educate a customer either. I may help them out, but the bottom line is that I paid my tuition to be a dealer, I did the studying and spent a lot of time looking for my things. Nobody ever takes into consideration that dealers work, that they have all kinds of time and expenses, and that when they buy things, they take a risk that it just might never sell. I have always gone by the rule that both the customer and myself should be happy at the close of a deal. If I make a profit on something, I don't rub the customers nose in it. If I find I got very lucky on something, I don't put it in the showcase next day for 20 times what I paid for it. Most of the things I got really lucky on are in my own collection anyway still, or I waited a good long time to sell it discretely. I can say, that I never felt like I took advantage of a person because they were plain stupid, but I have no guilty feelings getting a great deal because somebody else just wanted some cash and did not do the homework that I have done. Knowledge is not free. I have turned away a customer that had some really nice things but I had a gut feeling they might be stolen from grandma or "hot". One time I even called up a dealer that I knew had some inventory that a kid showed up at my house with that I saw in their shop. I also called the kids mother. Recently I got 150.00 coin on ebay for under 10 bucks. I am not going to send the seller a paypal payment of 100.00 so I can sleep better at night. Again, I did the homework, they didn't and I'm not making a fool of the seller for it. Edited by TNG
02/16/2009 09:49 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1840 Posts |
I don't see any ethical problems here. This isn't stealing from the collection plate at church. Prices were agreed upon and merchandise changed hands. Both sides took risks. Why should it become an ethical dilemma just because one party made out significantly better than the other?
I also think people are reading too much into this story. The author stated that he wasn't truthful in identifying the source of the coin to protect the dealers feelings. I take that at face value. Why would he fabricate that part of the story when he could have just omitted all together?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5622 Posts |
HMMMM  |
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Valued Member
United States
79 Posts |
He lied. I am one person that thinks that you should tell the truth, even if it hurts.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
819 Posts |
Question: "If you buy bulk coins or grab bags from a dealer (who should do due diligence in putting the bag or lot together), are you obligated to then grade and value each coin and go back to the dealer and say that the lot was actually worth $1.57 more than you paid, therefore offer the dealer an additional $1.57?"
The dealer failed (for whatever reason) to do due diligence...it appears he offered for sale a specific amount of coins (by number, weight, face amount or whatever) and that offer was accepted. end of story.
The only question seems to be because of the dollar amount involved. I agree the finder should not have lied, he was under no obligation to reveal anything about the source of the coin, but that is a separate issue.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
819 Posts |
The point I was trying to make above is that if the amount is small would the same rule apply? Is ethics situational whereby it only comes into play when the amount is large? If it is wrong when the amount is high, then shouldn't everyone do the same for small amounts?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5622 Posts |
Just amazing the responses put together by all who , thankfully responded, however I am looking to also ad the follow up article in this weeks Numismatic News, page 14& 16 entitled," COLLECTOR'S MORGAN FIND A DISHONEST ACT", Am I to believe that all the input, basically, the collector was right and nothing, besides lying was the main point of this ? I would like to know( because I am not a member) just what the ANA'S policy on conduct, for both ( member's ) the dealer and the collector. I would almost be sure to say that this "adventure" would not be accepted and I hope they do become aware of this and set an example of just what is "the right thing to do". I believe the dealer's and the collector's alike should be held to ( written or not ) a higher standard than this !! All follow up comments welcome...... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
618 Posts |
I think Super dave hit the nail on the head with the first reply. To me that is the proper way of collecting. You get what you have coming to you.
The collector should of left the dealer that he got it from out of it. He shoudl of done his own leg work. To me it is like the guy was rubbing his nose in it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
819 Posts |
to me, the lying is a separate action totally removed from the first; the first was a legit deal, though in the buyers favor due to dealer oversight/whatever.
to keep from lying, are you going to tell the pyromaniac where you hid your matches? I don't mean to justify the lying in this instance, it was uncalled for or uneeded and I see it as extraneous to the transaction...unless the dealer asked where he got it , which is really none of the dealer's business.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1083 Posts |
I agree with SuperDave also. However, the reason the public is so leery of coin collecting is that it is rife with ripoffs and always has been. From mail order, mass media offers to local dealers there is some dealer cheating (ok maybe taking advantage of) someone every single day in every city in the US. Get around any group of numismatists and you will find a fair share of greedy, jaded, egotistic and unfriendly folks, some of who have very little conscience. Ethics and honesty are an individual matter and cannot be legislated by the ANA or any organization. On the other hand just because there are dealers who are dishonest (certainly not all of them) does not excuse the collector from being the same way. He should have come clean with the dealer. I hope I would have. |
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Valued Member
United States
290 Posts |
I think the lie is immaterial in one respect: regardless of the lie, the collector had a right to the coin by a fair bargain. A bargain (I will assume) made by a person who has superior knowledge than the collector. So, at the end of the day, whether the collector told the truth, or told a lie about how he came about the coin, does not affect his right to own the coin. The lie is after the fact.
However, the lie has other possible repurcussions: was the lie told with an evil intent - to prevent future conduct by the dealer in looking more closely at his morgans?
I have read many people in this forum state that a dealer lowers the grade when he is buying and raises the grade when selling. Isn't that lying? Is it wrong to lie to a lier? Or is this what-goes-around-comes-aroudn for the dealer?
Lastly, waht is the intent behind the lie was for the dealer's own well-being? Did the collector lie to protect the feelings of the dealer who is having financial troubles and the truth would have given the dealer great anxiety and stress; was someone else in the shop where it might have caused the dealer to lose face in front of a large customer thereby causing loss of future business? In which case, was the lie benign? Is a benign lie immoral?
Okay, I want a ten page paper on the subject by next week. Class dismissed!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
MD, I think it's to your credit how you value honesty in your dealings with people.  That said, I also understand how many collectors see grey areas to this story. Personally, it doesn't strike me so much as greed or "situational ethics", but not feeling responsible for a dealer's oversights. As others note, I think contriving where he found the coin was unnecessary. My view on the matter is that I regard dealers as professionals and they should be aware of what they sell. Dealers can check their inventory any time they like. So, if they don't bother (or care) to find the valuable coins, I'll gladly do it for them--but that's not a free service I offer.  Here's a real-world example: at the last coin show I attended, I opened up a dealer's album to see a 1998-S Lincoln Close AM proof. The dealer was offering this rare coin for $4, so it was an easy matter to agree there and conclude the transaction. I live for finds like that, and don't feel compelled to share any special knowledge I might have. It's not dishonesty when both parties are free to inspect the coins themselves and arrive at their own valuation (imo). In those cases where I've sold coins, I've been completely upfront about what I sell. If somebody spots something I didn't, then I applaud their find. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1040 Posts |
The lie was unnecessary and no one except the purchaser of the coin can truly say why it was told. As for the coin itself? The dealer sold it, the purchaser bought it, from a legal view point, end of story. This is simply a case of two people not doing their due diligence, the person who sold to the dealer and the dealer himself. And one person doing it, the purchaser. Obviously the person who sold to the dealer was happy with what he got or he wouldn't have sold it, likewise the dealer.
The coin wasn't obtained through deception or theft, and besides all that, I really don't think the value of the coin warrants all the fuss. If it was a $100 coin bought for $10, would we be making such a fuss?
However having said that, I have a fantastic relationship with my dealer here in OZ, and if something like that happened to me I would show him. If, as this guy did, I intended to sell it, I would give it back and split the profit. If I wanted to keep it, my dealer would congratulate me on the find.
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Replies: 31 / Views: 3,995 |
First Page
Posted 02/16/2009 09:09 am
