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ID Help - A Few (Mostly French) Medievals

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chirrrs's Avatar
United States
164 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2022  01:54 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add chirrrs to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
So I have a few medieval coins I'm having some trouble identifying. I've just been beating my head against the wall with these lately, so any help on these would be greatly appreciated!

(1)

ID-Help---A-Few-Mostly-French-Medievals

This appears to be a denier from the Bishopric of Lausanne around the 13th-14th century, resembling something like this:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces324146.html

However, I haven't come across anything with the vertical line through the roof of the temple. Has anyone seen this before? Surely it's not uncommon.

---

(2)

ID-Help---A-Few-Mostly-French-Medievals

This one I have not been able to find much on. One side has a crown, and I can't tell what the letters underneath are. DX/D'X/JO'X/JOX all seem like decent guesses. On that same side, the text seems to read MARIA + ?MIPUS. On the opposite side, it seems like it says INX * MEDIO and then something else. I have not had any luck with this one at all.

---

(3)

ID-Help---A-Few-Mostly-French-Medievals

This one looks a lot like these Duchy of Savoy 1/4 Grosso from the late 1500s:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces56216.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces138509.html

Only problem is that the text around the edges is clearly different. I have a couple of these and the FERT is clear, as are the double lines above and below. It almost looks like + EPAI LIBER * DVX and pretty clear A DOMI + on the other.

---

(4)

ID-Help---A-Few-Mostly-French-Medievals

Some of the text on the side with the cross is legible. I see SIT:NOME:DHI:DEI:H)P:XPI. In the next ring it looks like ROLUS * REX. On the opposite side, it almost looks like SAVENS + DA. I can't quite make out the features on the indside.

It kind of looks like some of these gros tournois and others:

This is the one that it looks closest to, but I'm not seeing LVDOVICVS anywhere. It appears to be someone else.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces57848.html


These others are similar, but the Louis appears to be the closest:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces311352.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces220308.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces316634.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces60514.html

The details around the fleur de lis seem a bit different, and I can't match the text with anything.

---

(5)

ID-Help---A-Few-Mostly-French-Medievals

I haven't had a whole lot of luck with this one either. It appears French due to the fluer de lis on the portrait, but I haven't come across any French coins yet where the portrait extends through the lettering. I have seen that on some English and Spanish coins, but nothing yet French. The obverse appears to say something like CICIERG?+?S?P. On the opposite side I m seeing COMES : PRO?HLIG+.

---

That's it for now. I have 5 or 6 others that I'm working on. If I don't get anywhere tomorrow, I may start putting those up as well. Thanks for looking, and thanks for any help!
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westcoin's Avatar
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9792 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2022  02:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
#3 looks most like the 1/4 Groshen of Charles the III (6th Type) 1504-1553, to my eyes.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces139936.html

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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
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 Posted 09/05/2022  02:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Number (4) is a gros from Vienne/Dauphine, for Charles V of France. Here is another one: https://www.inumis.com/shop/dauphin...nois-707489/

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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2124 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2022  03:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Number (5) is a double denier coronat by Charles II, Count of Provence. Like this one: https://www.cgbfr.com/provence-comt...22280,a.html
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2124 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2022  03:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Number (2) is a trillina by Filippo Maria Visconti, Duke of Milan. Seems unusual, this is the only reference I have found: https://numismatica-italiana.lamone...11?mylang=en
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chirrrs's Avatar
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164 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2022  4:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chirrrs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks guys, that's really helpful so far! I know I'm pretty close on the other two (#1 and #3), it's just a matter of figuring out the exact variety at this point.

Erafjel, do you just know a lot of this stuff really well or are you using various image searches or both? Pretty impressive that you got 3 out 5 that quick! I have some books for English medieval coinage, but only one for French, and that's mainly for jetons. I'll have to look into some references for French coins.
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2124 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2022  5:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, thanks, @chirrrs . I specialize on French coins, so the ones from Dauphine and Provence I recognized, it was just a matter of pinning down the precise attribution. The Milanese one was tougher, but I enjoy a bit of detective work .

You are on the right track with number (1), it has to be Lausanne/Vaud with those symbols in the quadrants of the cross. I struggle with matching the inscription to any of those coins, without success, so I cannot say anything more precise than that.

Best (and most recent) references for French royal and feudal coins are the books by Jean Duplessy: Les Monnaies Françaises Royales de Hugues Capet à Louis XVI (987-1793) in two volumes and Les Monnaies Françaises Feodales, also in two volumes. (It was the latter one I used to pin down the Dauphine and Provence coins.)
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tdziemia's Avatar
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7933 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2022  9:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think #1 is more or less this coin: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3420839

The position of the letters is a good match; only that vertical beam to the temple is missing.

Very interesting group of coins!
Edited by tdziemia
09/05/2022 9:50 pm
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2124 Posts
 Posted 09/06/2022  10:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, you nailed it, @tdziemia!

Now I can read the OP coin as SID.. IAVS (S's sideways). I even found another one with that variety of the inscription: https://www.colleconline.com/pt/ite...-de-lausanne

And searching further, I found this article (in French) which discusses precisely this type of denier: https://www.e-periodica.ch/cntmng?t...1974:53::261

It lists all the many known variations of the inscription, becoming more and more degenerated with time, as can be seen from the excerpt below. I think the OP coin matches D 33-38 and R 39 (which is not one of the listed combinations in the paper, but then again, the temple variety with its vertical line is not there either).

ID-Help---A-Few-Mostly-French-Medievals ID-Help---A-Few-Mostly-French-Medievals
Courtesy of ETH-Bibliothek, ETH Zürich (see article front page for terms of use).
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chirrrs's Avatar
United States
164 Posts
 Posted 09/07/2022  6:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chirrrs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I found both volumes of Les Monnaies Françaises Royales and bought those. I'll keep an eye out for Les Monnaies Françaises Feodales. I'm really starting to build up my medieval collection and English and French are the two at the top of my list right now. I have quite a few books on English coinage, but nothing on French until these arrive!
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