1867 2c Repunched Date? Overdate? Sloppy Engraver's Marks?

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Author	Replies: 7 / Views: 1,584
Oldgrouchyguy Pillar of the Community United States 630 Posts	Posted 09/06/2022 10:11 pm Hello Everyone! I hope your evening is dry (over 3" of rain today here). My C4 friend has been kicking this coin around, and asked me what I thought. Aside from thinking that the obv. die suffers from a plethora of engraver's marks and scratches, I have no idea. The 8 is spiked at the left side of its waist, so we know that it was in all probability repunched. The 6, at a tilt, appears to have a "5" under it. The 7 appears to have been repunched over a smaller 7 (you can see the top curve of the date 7and maybe part of the shaft of an under7, so it probably isn't crumbling). The 6 and 7 appear to be weakly impressed at the bottom, so maybe the die was heavily polished there? Obviously we don't have any of the variety books... comments are greatly appreciated. Edited by Oldgrouchyguy 09/06/2022 11:12 pm Report this Post to the Staff

westcoin Pillar of the Community United States 9792 Posts	Posted 09/10/2022 6:23 pm I'm not seeing any of the die markers that lead me to believe this is one of the 3 known RPD's of 1867. It's also not one of the 3 mint state DDOs (definitely not the Proof DDO). Not seeing the overdate, there are no overdates in the series. At least the two previously thought of overdates the 1865/4 and 1869/8 have both been proven to be nothing more than die cracks and not overdates. The little spur off the 8 is interesting, a similar looking one is found on 1865 dated coins (plain 5 variety) which are RPDs. More like an area of PMD or possibly a die chip. I don't have all my 1867 dated Two Cent Pieces photographed yet, so can't compare that date at the moment. The date does appear to fall into line with a normal 1867 date logotype/design. the 7 having a distinct look to the lower part of the 7 (weaker strike) and the flatter edge on the outer edge, while the 1 bottom serif is longer on the left side. My call is it's just a common 1867 Two Cent Piece, cleaned and detailed (for the cleaning and the scratch through the horizontal shield lines), grading around AU53/55. "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 Report this Post to the Staff
Oldgrouchyguy Pillar of the Community United States 630 Posts	Posted 09/10/2022 8:47 pm Westcoin: Thank You! Here are some of the Engraver's scratches; we can't find another like this one, and in all probability someone should have polished these off before it was put in use. The spike of the 8 resembles some repunching seen of the digit, but it could be a horrible engraver's tooling mark. Speaking of horrible tooling marks, see the bases of the of the shield stripes in the second picture. There are dots of metal between the stripes. You can see a similar dot of metal at the junction of the 7's top and stand... click on the pic, it expands. Photographs show the undertypes of the 6 and 7 much clearer; I'll find a better camera. Anyway, if someone has the Die Variety book maybe we can be told if it's in there? Edited by Oldgrouchyguy 09/10/2022 9:54 pm Report this Post to the Staff
westcoin Pillar of the Community United States 9792 Posts	Posted 09/10/2022 10:02 pm Very cool to see the die scratches very obvious around the IGWT banner and shield horns. I have every book I can think of that pertains to Two Cent varieties: S.W. Freeman's early article in a multi part of The Numismatist 1949 Myron Klimans (no photos) and first book Breen's Encylopedia Cherrypicker's Guides Frank Leone "Longacre's Two Cent varieties and errors (and his 1864 Guide book - not applicable here) Complete set of the 2 Cent Times newsletter Kevin Flynn's two books, Getting your Two Cents Worth and the Authoritative Guide Sam Thurman's Cud Books (edited by Frank Leone) The only one I don't have would be the new Mega Red Book just released that covers the Two Cent Pieces. If I have to call it then I'd say it's a FL-67-5A "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 Edited by westcoin 09/10/2022 11:35 pm Report this Post to the Staff
Oldgrouchyguy Pillar of the Community United States 630 Posts	Posted 09/10/2022 10:19 pm This may be the same obverse die, with (almost) everything polished off, which would explain the narrowing of the insides of the 8 and 6. The 8 and 6 appear different than in other 1867 punched dies. Mine is probably an extremely rare die state, before lapping, which shows an underdigit and engraver's errors. Oh, and westcoin, you're right on the money: it's in an old holder "AU Dets Clnd" Edited by Oldgrouchyguy 09/11/2022 02:25 am Report this Post to the Staff
westcoin Pillar of the Community United States 9792 Posts	Posted 09/13/2022 9:48 pm I believe that second example you sent me and posted is also the same die (at least the obverse) not enough work has gone into 1865 an on dates, the 1864 has been pretty well documented. I'm slowly working on cataloging Fancy 5 1865 date die pairs. I have not attempted the 1867 die pairings yet, but off the top of my head I'd say there are probably around 12-15 pairs of them at least. "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 Report this Post to the Staff
Oldgrouchyguy Pillar of the Community United States 630 Posts	Posted 09/13/2022 11:09 pm westcoin: the second example is of an EDS Double Die obverse (pic courtesy of ebay). The dot on the right base of the 1 is consistent on mine and all 1867 DD's. The spike on the 8 was in the meat of the 8, not just field of the die, and it fades rather quickly Edited by Oldgrouchyguy 09/13/2022 11:24 pm Report this Post to the Staff
Oldgrouchyguy Pillar of the Community United States 630 Posts	Posted 09/13/2022 11:50 pm Now we know why the die was rehubbed (severe lapping), resulting in the doubling Edited by Oldgrouchyguy 09/13/2022 11:52 pm Report this Post to the Staff
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