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Fake Coins Submitted To The Grading Companies

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darryldarryl's Avatar
Canada
2426 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2022  5:10 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add darryldarryl to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers

I don't think this question has been asked here before.
What do the the Grading companies do with coins that they determine to be fake or counterfeit?
Do they simply send them back to the submitter marked fake or do they send them to the proper authorities like the Police?



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Canada
5324 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2022  5:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS returns the coin in their famous body bag
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ijn1944's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 12/20/2022  5:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ijn1944 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, it's my understanding they're returned to the submitter.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2022  6:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A fake coin is not legally a coin, and so would make it ungradable.
The TPGrader has no choice but to send it back ungraded.
To give a fake coin a grade would give it some level of legiticimacy which would be poor business ethics, on the part of the TPGrader.

If a very convincing fake does get graded, the TPGrader has a major problem on their hands,
because the implication is that if it IS graded, the coin must be genuine, and there has been a failure on the part of the TPGrader to identify it as fake.



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darryldarryl's Avatar
Canada
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 Posted 12/20/2022  6:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add darryldarryl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am a little confused.
Isn't it illegal to ship fake and or counterfeits into Canada?
Wouldn't PCGS or NGC or whoever was shipping the coin back into Canada be committing a crime?
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1353 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2022  6:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There have been fake coins unwittingly graded by TPG's. PCGS and NGC generally, when notified, will buy them under their guarantee policies and keep them. Whether they then destroy them or use them for training purposes, I do not know.
http://www.victoriancent.com

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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2022  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Still confused. I know of a friend who deliberately submitted a counterfeit Henning nickel and received it back in a slab noted as such.
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nfine's Avatar
United States
3473 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2022  6:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nfine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First thing that popped into my head too, Coinfrog.
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 Posted 12/20/2022  6:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not that familiar with Henning nickels, but have they achieved their own collectible niche, like JOP counter-stamped dollars? Just my guess of why a US TPG would grade a fake coin.
http://www.victoriancent.com

2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
Edited by bosox
12/20/2022 6:42 pm
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Canada
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 Posted 12/20/2022  6:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In my case involves a questionable error coin, PCGS did not confirm and sent back the coin
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16849 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2022  6:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The slabbing companies always send back the fake coins to the submitter.

The slabbing companies are not acting as expert witnesses in a court of law; they are not offering a legally binding opinion on a counterfeit. The coins submitted to them do not belong to them, and they are contractually obligated to attempt to return the coins to the owner in the condition that they received them (so they aren't allowed to deliberately mutilate them, either).

Nobody would use slabbing companies if the slabbing companies started unilaterally seizing, mutilating or destroying coins they believed to be fake.

In the cases where they slabbing company returns a coin known to be counterfeit (and theoretically able to be proven so in a court of law), to a person in a country like Canada where importing fake coins is illegal, I suspect the legal workaround is that you, the submitter, legally own the coin at all times - so from that point of view it is you, not the slabbing company, who is doing the importing of a fake coin into Canada, you're just asking the slabbing company to ship it for you. At the moment of import, you are the only person inside Canada who is aware of the fakeness of the coin - the slabbing company is certainly under no obligation to notify the Canadian government of their opinion of its authenticity on its shipping dockets. It is therefore up to you the owner, not the slabbing company, to comply with Canadian law and report yourself and/or your coin to the appropriate authorities.
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darryldarryl's Avatar
Canada
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 Posted 12/20/2022  7:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add darryldarryl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"The coins submitted to them do not belong to them, and they are contractually obligated to attempt to return the coins to the owner in the condition that they received them (so they aren't allowed to deliberately mutilate them, either)."
Obligated or not I believe that if you knowingly send Fake/Counterfeit coins into Canada then you are committing a crime. I believe the laws are different in the US and Australia regarding fakes.
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Pacificoin's Avatar
Canada
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 Posted 12/20/2022  7:14 pm  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Received a rare German pattern that was returned in an NGC body
Bag w/ notation " Questionable authenticity "
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 Posted 12/20/2022  8:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think returning an ungradeable coin is the only way TPG can act, or as mentioned, the TPG would create a huge problem when the easiest solution is just return it.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16849 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2022  9:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Obligated or not I believe that if you knowingly send Fake/Counterfeit coins into Canada then you are committing a crime.

Absolutely correct. But since you are the legal owner of the coin in question, it is you who is doing the importing, not the TPG. The TPG is just following your instructions to return the coin to you. It is up to you to tell the TPG to send the coin somewhere else (or throw it in the bin, or whatever), if you do not wish to attempt to import a counterfeit coin into Canada.

You cannot expect the TPGs to be aware of all the many and varied national laws regarding shipping of counterfeits, or of coins generally, in all of the countries that could possibly submit coins to them. The only laws they are legally obliged to obey are the laws of the country where the business operates. And American law says shipping counterfeit coins is legal, so long as no fraud is involved.

Quote:
I believe the laws are different in the US and Australia regarding fakes.

They are indeed. Canadian anti-counterfeiting law is rather unique, in both its breadth of scope (all counterfeit coins are illegal, whether they be Canadian or not), and the near-complete lack of exceptions for coin collectors who might have legitimate reasons to deal in counterfeits (no replicas marked COPY, no fantasies, no contemporary circulating counterfeits, etc).

All of which raises the interesting corollary question: what do the Canadian TPGs do with counterfeit coins? Because legally, they aren't allowed to return them. Unlike the American slabbers, a Canadian-based company is obliged to obey Canadian law. I couldn't see anything on the ICCS website or their PDF submission form about their counterfeits policy.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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867 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2022  10:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tripoli to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
About 25 years ago, I had Cert Company return a counterfeit $5 or Sovereign, can't remember which.....it was returned, because it was gold after all......This was early days of ebay, and seller quickly refunded the money and I mailed him back the coin. This makes sense, because otherwise buyer has no recourse without the coin. And the cops aren't going to do anything about it
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