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 Replies: 16 / Views: 1,631 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
756 Posts |
these arent my pictures and I dont own this one.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Clueless. Nasty, scrubbed high VF details?  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6384 Posts |
Is that the actual color? Doesn't even appear to be copper.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Right, fill us in - is that the color you're trying to show?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
756 Posts |
yeah, thats a pretty good representation of the actual color of this piece if I remember right. It was more than 5 years ago that I saw it in person.
Edited by CarrsCoins
01/17/2023 11:20 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1849 Posts |
Interesting. It seems to be the tin restrike which Breen mentions on P. 806 of his book: "Struck outside the Mint from genuine dies sold as scrap metal (1816 and 1833), apparently by the same people who made the "1804 Restrike" "
Breen further comments that is shares the same reverse as the "1804 Restrike ". Same dies as 1820 N-12.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2334 Posts |
You guys are something else!
I just look and read and try and retain...
Thanks for sharing!
smat
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
18662 Posts |
I'm not touching this one with a 10ft pole. this is not normal so its got to be some odd ball occurrence as stated by GERMANICVS
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4085 Posts |
That's one of the steel war pennies that they made to save the copper for the War of 1812. They also made Half Dismes in silver to save nickel to use 57 years later for after the Civil War. These were commonly called war Half Dismes.  Edited by KenKat
01/18/2023 4:07 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
756 Posts |
ill add a little bit more info to this today. it strait graded with PCGS and got a cac sticker.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
One of those mysterious rarities. In John Haseltine's auction of Lyman Wilder in May, 1879 it lists the first 1810 Large Cent restrike struck in tin. 956. 1810; Cent; struck in white metal from original dies; fine; rare; said to be only 2 struck. How did Haseltine know they were only two 1810 restrikes struck in a white metal? Haseltine also sold a 1923 restrike in silver in 1875. These off-metal restrikes are additional circumstantial evidence that Haseltine was responsible for distribution of the 1804 restrikes and also the second group of 1823 restrikes. An 1810 Large Cent restrike was struck in tin that used an 1810 Large Cent obverse with the same 1820 Large Cent reverse used for the 1804 Large Cent restrikes. Only two specimens are known. 3. 1810 Large cent restrike "White Metal - tin. Judd-41, Pollock-6180 Obverse 1810 Sheldon-285, Reverse same as used for 1804 cent (1920). In Mark Borckardt and William Metropolis's 1996 article "Restriking the Issue The Large Cent Restrikes of 1804, 1810, and 1823", analysis of the 1804 and 1810 Large Cent restrike White Metal found: 1810 Large Cent restrike "White Metal" were found to average 93.7% tin, .4% copper, .1% arsenic, and .9% lead. Mickley most likely had the 1804 Large Cent restrikes made at the Philadelphia Mint in 1867. Chief Coiner A.L. Snowden was known to have struck many restrikes over his tenure as Chief Coiner, especially under the leadership of Mint Director Henry Linderman. Mickley had established many contacts at the Philadelphia Mint and obtained many rare coins over the years. As the 1803 obverse was ground down to help remove remnants of the 3 and a 4 was struck over top, which was more likely performed at the Mint. Snowden probably had many points of contacts to distribute the coins he struck and sold privately. Most 1804 Large Cent restrikes also display decent rims and well struck design elements which is another sign they were struck inside the Mint. By having the 1804 Restrikes made at the Mint through A.L. Snowden, Mickley had a much better chance of keeping himself as the source of these coins a secret. Mickley more than likely did not tell anyone else he was the source of the 1804 working dies during his lifetime. John Haseltine sold many of the restrikes believed to have been struck by A.L. Snowden and he had many 1804 and 1823 restrikes in his auctions. Haseltine also sold an 1810 restrike in tin in 1875. Haseltine most likely received these from Snowden to sell. The 1804 Large Cent restrike working dies are unknown as to their disposition. If they were used in the Philadelphia Mint, they might have been destroyed at the Mint. If the 1804 Large Cent restrikes were struck inside the Mint, even clandestinely, then they should be considered legal U.S. coins. If they were struck outside the Mint, then they should be considered counterfeits. The evidence points them more likely to have been struck inside the Mint. http://coinzip.com/PDFS/Mickley_Restrikes.pdfIN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
As for grade MS64 missing gem due to the weak strike. No signs of circulation or rub. Just a bad strike with deteriorating dies. Not sure that grade matters that much with just 2 known.
Would be curious to see images of the other tin restrike if CC has those images.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
01/18/2023 4:53 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
756 Posts |
since the cat is solidly out of the bag...this is the Bird example of the 1810 restrike. here is the auction description from the goldberg sale where is realized $36,000:  Quote:
The 1804 Large Cent restrike working dies are unknown as to their disposition. If they were used in the Philadelphia Mint, they might have been destroyed at the Mint. this part is interesting. I havent seen that article before. ill read it later. the 1823 restrike dies still exist. ive held them quite a few times. you can too if you take my summer seminar class at the ANA. i have not seen the other example and do not know where it resides. Edited by CarrsCoins
01/18/2023 5:03 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
This seems more like a mint shenanigan rather than a Mint issue. It is just speculation that this was struck at the Mint and does not appear to be an official U.S. issuance even if it was.
A.L. Snowden, not to be confused with his uncle J.R. Snowden who was Director of the Mint seems to have been riding the coattails of his war hero/surgeon father and his accomplished uncle. He seems to have been the poster child for graft and one of the reasons why the political spoils system was dismantled by the Civil service reforms of the Pendleton Act of 1883. He was essentially a perpetually appointed civil "servant" who sold "Mint products" to Haseltine.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
01/18/2023 5:24 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
756 Posts |
how about this one from the same auction- judd 38a. shenanigans on top of shenanigans 1806 quarter obverse and an unreported large fraction draped bust reverse combined. stuck on a existing cent believed to be a classic head.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
18662 Posts |
these are way past my pay grade but interesting history
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Replies: 16 / Views: 1,631 |
Posted 01/17/2023 9:56 pm
