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2023 Penny Extra V Error?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 06/12/2023  8:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I take it that there is more than one example of this new extra V cent. If the position of this extraneous V is also invariant within this population, this might indicate that a second working hub was modified clandestinely. Machine Doubling and ejection impact doubling both produce extra elements in variable positions.
Error coin writer and researcher.
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 Posted 06/15/2023  08:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If Machine Doubling or ejection impact doubling were responsible for these variably-positioned extra Vs, you'd expect the other designer's initials to be duplicated as well. The fact that they aren't suggests that some of these variably-positioned extra Vs are contact marks while others might have been intentionally added by folks seeking to make a quick buck. It takes little time or talent to tap in or scratch in two short, converging straight lines.
Error coin writer and researcher.
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datadragon's Avatar
United States
1648 Posts
 Posted 06/15/2023  11:37 am  Show Profile   Check datadragon's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If Machine Doubling or ejection impact doubling were responsible for these variably-positioned extra Vs, you'd expect the other designer's initials to be duplicated as well. The fact that they aren't suggests that some of these variably-positioned extra Vs are contact marks while others might have been intentionally added by folks seeking to make a quick buck. It takes little time or talent to tap in or scratch in two short, converging straight lines.


That certainly is...logical but so far just nothing definitive. Some thoughts as you continue to think about it: Are the 2023 p bessie coleman quarters for example having doubling in areas beyond the designer's initials which would fit into those being a form of ejection impact doubling or Machine Doubling as suggested and start to help differentiate whats going on? http://goccf.com/t/441035 I would imagine contact marks found like that would be found often then on other coins in different areas on the coin which might help to compare.

Do you have knowledge of the new Schuler presses in use since apparently may even be differences in the different models being used in the feeding and ejecting components which might be something new and when they were installed (we saw ejection impact doubling in 2017 also on quarters) which the mint apparently uses the Schuler MRH 150 (horizontal) for quarters but not sure what is used for cents.

Edited by datadragon
06/15/2023 12:36 pm
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 Posted 06/15/2023  12:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The doubled Bessie Coleman designer's initials are probably an example of incuse Machine Doubling. The spread is variable and is certainly within established limits of Machine Doubling. I have no knowledge of different models of Schuler presses that may or may not be employed by the Mint.
Error coin writer and researcher.
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Pete2226's Avatar
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3331 Posts
 Posted 06/15/2023  3:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The spread is variable and is certainly within established limits of Machine Doubling.



@Mike Diamond - can you provide the "established limits of Machine Doubling."? Is that a measurement in MM?
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 Posted 06/15/2023  5:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On the hammer die (which is the Bessie Coleman reverse die), there is no fixed limit, but I've never seen a lateral displacement greater than 2 millimeters.
Error coin writer and researcher.
Edited by mikediamond
06/15/2023 5:47 pm
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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 06/15/2023  5:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mike—thank you!
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datadragon's Avatar
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 Posted 06/15/2023  6:23 pm  Show Profile   Check datadragon's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have no knowledge of different models of Schuler presses that may or may not be employed by the Mint.


Here is some informative articles to start from 2013. Philadelphia uses a Schuler Upsetting Machine. This machine places an edge or rim on blanks. They use newer Schuler MRH 150 Coining Presses. Using 60 tons of pressure, this press can strike 750 quarters for circulation every minute. With one strike, Schuler coining presses transfer the negative image from the dies onto the blank creating a coin. Each press can strike 12 coins per second and has a video in the philadelphia link below - each back and forth movement of the press shown in the video produces a new quarter. Dollar coins are processed through an extra step. They are made using two stand-alone coining presses which are not on the production lines. After the dollar coins are struck, they are quickly fed through a RS 50 machine which places the edge lettering on each coin. Die segments are inside the machine. Each coin is rolled over the lettered-groove on the die segment at a pace of 1000 coins per minute.

Philadelphia Mint: https://www.coinnews.net/2013/09/20...circulation/

Denver mint: https://www.coinnews.net/2014/01/13...circulation/

San Francisco: https://www.coinnews.net/2013/04/17...-press-room/

Schuler Brochures:
https://www.schulergroup.com/major/...e_rs50_e.pdf and https://www.schulergroup.com/major/...s/index.html
https://www.schulergroup.com/major/...chuere_e.pdf


Edited by datadragon
06/16/2023 10:31 am
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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 06/16/2023  10:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Datadragon - thanks for the Schuler info.
Edited by Pete2226
06/16/2023 10:03 am
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silviosi's Avatar
Canada
6244 Posts
 Posted 06/16/2023  5:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ DATA, the tones forces are different from coin to coin. I will go to see all. For example on those reflex-vacuum presses they can go till 850 coins a minute for dimes and Cents. You has to go to see how impressive is. The MRH 150 can go till 150 tones (max) but the frequency will be lower. From the Schuler Corp. I know the mint will go for the 200 tones version. In this case all 62 presses in Phil will be able to strike at high frequency all the coins and also the Medals. Probably some of the 150 will be transfer to Military's facilities and to West Point.
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United States
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 Posted 06/17/2023  09:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add famiglietti49 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is this error recognized by PCGS? I have seen some with NGC slabs but none so far with PCGS. I have one with an extra V which I am considering sending in to PCGS if recognized by them.
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 Posted 06/18/2023  08:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ComeHonor716 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Op here. I reached out to PCGS about the discovery and made a submission a few weeks ago. They requested all info about the discovery including a printout of this thread and my email exchanges with ANACS and NGC. Should have an answer soon.
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 Posted 06/18/2023  09:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add famiglietti49 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Keep me posted as to what PCGS tells you. Thanks for the response!
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 Posted 06/19/2023  09:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add demy1970 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great post guys, I was out metal detecting and looked through a bunch and found a 2023 penny with the v. Good work

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CherryPicker1's Avatar
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646 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2023  6:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CherryPicker1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ComeHonor716 just curious, did you ever get a response from PCGS? I see that they still don't have the variety listed on their website so I assume they've chosen to not recognize it as of now.
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