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 Replies: 11 / Views: 1,402 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
561 Posts |
Picked this piece up from a reputable seller on Instagram. It was sold to me as underweight due to edge filing, which would make sense by the size of it at about 39mm. However, as I've spent time with it, I'm starting to think it isn't filed, it's just fake. The letters are starting to look a little mushy to me, the surfaces seem too nice for the level of wear, it has perfect coin alignment even though it should be medal alignment, and even the ping feels too tinny (though comparing it to other pieces I have pings are all over the place)... am I going crazy or does this seem like it may be a fraud?  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
541 Posts |
Based on your description and the way it looks I would be thinking it is probably fake. If the edge is shaved it may have had hall marks etc removed, To me it looks too perfectly round and the field surfaces are too perfect. The color and even strike also makes me suspicious. the sandblasted finish seen on the enlargement removes all doubt for me.
Edited by retiredkper
03/18/2023 6:30 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7936 Posts |
You didn't mention the weight. Doing some quick research on acsearch which has dozens of these, I am seeing about 90% of the specimens in a very narrow range of 28.7 - 29.3 g. Undersize and underweight is a big red flag, no matter what the seller says. Here is a comparison with an example sold by Kuenker.  Anyhow, a reputable seller will take it back. Edited by tdziemia
03/18/2023 9:41 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
561 Posts |
Thank you for your thoughts, I wanted to provide some follow up. Trying to play devil's advocate as much as possible because if it is real I do truly love this coin. retiredkper - I had someone on a group I'm in also mention the sandblasted look, as though it had been cast, I feel that look does not show up in hand, and want to provide an additional surface photo to support that.  tdziemia - I would love to provide an accurate mass, but a battery just blew up in my scale, so that's burnt out of commission  if I remember correctly it was ~24.5g, which by my math fits with the loss of diameter. Diameter wise it is approximately 40mm, maybe just shy. I'll provide an image of the edge, it is certainly messed with. Also to respond to the Kuenker sale you provided, that's an alternate die used for these, I'll provide a PCGS example of one that matches my die design.   I appreciate your thoughts thus far and hope this helps to solidify opinions one way or another Edited by PNWType
03/19/2023 9:00 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7936 Posts |
From a die design viewpoint, my thought had been that if it were a fake, it was a really good one. The fonts match well, and only minor variations in other details.
But in scanning through the examples on acsearch with a weight listed, I was struck by the consistency. I would presume any edge filing would have been done at the mint, as a quality control measure to bring the weight into range?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
561 Posts |
I was under the impression the edge filing would be post-mint and a result of a ne'er-do-well attempting to pass it at face while pocketing excess silver, or someone wanting to round it off for jewelry or a bezel.
I edited my message with what I think was the mass that I measured for it a few months back when I received it. By some quick math from the proper mass/diam (43, 28.9) to the mass/diam of mine, 24.5g at just under 40mm lines up with the size lost.
I do certainly agree with the die being a solid match
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
Only thing I see strange is the filed edge. Seems too regular to have been someone taking silver.
Could the coin have been mounted in the past? But does not show any mount damage.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
381 Posts |
Hi. There also appear to be a couple of lost details in the spires on the reverse. Edge filing might be to remove evidence of the metal having been poured into a mould.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I have seen only a couple dozen examples of similar coins so the piece is out of my wheelhouse.
However, the edge of the coin looks modern to my eye. It resembles a collared strike. Most of the comparables shown and the coins that I have seen show a far more irregular shape - not truly round. I believed (but may be wrong) that state of the art was a roller press similar to the Leopold the Hogmouth Talers. Those were all cut after the impression was rolled onto a metal strip. The edge simply does not resemble what I would view as genuine.
For my money, the coin looks like a Numismatic Forgery not a genuine coin struck in the Seventeenth Century.
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1185 Posts |
perhaps interesting to compare the coin with this one: a piece that framed into a contemporary setting in order to be used as a pendant I show only the obverse side as like in the Kuenker piece, the rose in the legend of the obverse is more away from the forehead than the piece posted here  I agree with swamperbob that the edge does look modern, it does not appear to have the typical edge marks from a piece that has been clipped |
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1185 Posts |
comparison of the reverse side:  1) details in the moat around the city wall are quite different 2) there is a little rose at the stem of the pineapple it is lacking in the posted piece comparison of my piece (1642) with the kuenker piece (1643) mentioned by tdziemia  all this could be explained by different dies of course |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
541 Posts |
Judging just from the picture the damage to the edge does not look like an attempt to shave silver but rather an attempt to remove information which would have identified it as a modern repro
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Replies: 11 / Views: 1,402 |
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Posted 03/18/2023 9:37 pm
