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Replies: 34 / Views: 4,223 |
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Moderator
 United States
54280 Posts |
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/r...ance-2269635The coin was sold for $4.2 million in 2020. An investigation found the coin, along with other ancient objects, were sold with forged provenance certificates. The charges are grand larceny in the first and second degree, criminal possession of stolen property in the first and second degree, conspiracy in the fourth degree, and scheme to defraud in the first degree.  Show your financial support of the Coin Community Family (click here)See my topic on Mexican Numismatic Medals (click here)
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Moderator
 United States
34393 Posts |
Quote: Interested parties were told that the objects came from "an old Swiss collection," which is code for coins of suspicious provenance. Yikes!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5238 Posts |
I wonder if the person who paid $4.2 million for this coin got any money back, as it was seized and "repatriated to the country of origin"? The article does not state anything as far as I can see.
Imagine how you would feel if you had bought it and it is now gone?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2213 Posts |
It's sad this behavior damages the hobby. Governments are increasingly tightening laws to clamp down on the international trade of antiquities and ancient coins. I don't like looting or provenance lying, but ancient Greek/Roman coins have been collected for hundreds of years, found all over Europe and beyond, even in India. While it's good to have provenance for an object or coin, it wasn't considered important years ago. The rulers years ago of Greece, Egypt, Italy etc. legally allowed the sale and export of antiquities and ancient coins. I have no way of knowing the original find spot of most of my ancient coins and artifacts or when they were found. A few of mine have provenance from an older collection or a hoard discovery. Many I bought from dealers who live in Europe or visited there. I support buying/selling them in USA, hope that never changes. I think governments are much more interested in high dollar artifacts and coins, not as much the less expensive. Here's an article about import restrictions: https://accguild.org/Ancient-Coin-I...Restrictions
Edited by livingwater 03/28/2023 7:31 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
Since the actual provenance of these two very important coins is still unknown, their source must necessarily be in question.
It follows that the possibility that they are not genuine, poses a very significant unanswered question as well.
As part of the process to establish authenticity, NGC's opinion should, and the process as to how it arrived at that opinion, for these two coins must be reviewed as a matter of necessity.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
I notice that the Roma Numismatics business card no longer appears on the Vcoins Stores by Category website.
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CCF Advertiser
 United States
1303 Posts |
Sel; In this NGC announcement from 2020 they are very happy to have certified this coin and say there were only two known before this coin was revealed and they certified it. So many questions come up but first do they have X-Ray fluorescence for the coin as I assume the gold would have trace elements of other gold coins from the area and mint of the time. And if they did and it is fine, if this is not real was it struck on a flan from another ancient coin of gold or it's gold repurposed, that had contamination one would expect to see? They had to have done this I imagine, the scan for a coin like that. If it is real, it had to be hidden for thousands of years in one of the countries like Italy to have to create a fake pedigree so they have to actually know the real pedigree, the man who provided it for sale. Through World Wars it was never reported? So it has to be fake in my opinion thus what did the scans say I wonder? https://www.ngccoin.uk/news/article...eaks-record/
Edited by louisvillekyshop 03/31/2023 3:39 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
NGC have the most respected ancient coin professionals.
Nevertheless, like the examination of pHd theses generally, their work, when it comes to coins of the importance the EID Mar aureii, should be reviewed by their peers in the industry, before any public announcement is made. That helps to establish a beginning provenance of any 'new' and unknown example coming into the numismatic market.
Accurate metal analysis, by itself, with a coin such as an EID MAR aureus, may not be enough to establish authenticity. Roman gold coins can be reproduced using recycled gold from other lowest value aureii, and have most probably been used in the past, especially for a coin that could bring $millions at public auction. All other criteria (including an established provenance (also not enough by itself - fake provenances have been established in the past-), should be utilized as well.
Especially so, before such a coin may be sold at public auction
Edited by sel_69l 03/31/2023 6:34 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts |
The Eid Mar is believed to have been found more than a decade ago in an area of Greece where Brutus and his civil war ally, Gaius Cassius Longinus, were encamped with their army. Reliable sources are suggesting that photos exist of the coin in situ.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2213 Posts |
I assume in situ can be faked too.
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CCF Advertiser
 United States
1303 Posts |
Kushanshah:
If it was found more then a decade ago in Greece, I doubt it was the old Italian man who worked with Roma to sell it who found it himself of course. So how many other people are there who knew, and how many can be also taken to court by the Greek authorities? If the people now involved give in and don't fight the charge the trail will have to be given to exactly who found this and we will all know soon enough and probably talk about it here once that hits the press.
Edited by louisvillekyshop 04/01/2023 07:11 am
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
Nice to see some numismatic brains brighter than mine entering into this discussion  I hope we will all be a bit wiser from this thread.
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Moderator
  United States
54280 Posts |
Show your financial support of the Coin Community Family (click here)See my topic on Mexican Numismatic Medals (click here)
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
It was the man who was arrested (Richard Beale), who credited NGC's "impartial verification" (my quote), of the coin's authenticity. In my opinion, that was a tiny but very significant step taken way too far by Beale. To protect their butt NGC maintains that: ' that rarely is there conclusive data for ancient coins, and generally there is no surviving documentation to verify production characteristics.' NGC doe not provide an authenticity or provenance service for ancient coins, although it is reasonable policy that they will not grade any ancient coin, which in their opinion, may not be authentic. -Legally understandable. From all of what I have read so far, I still cannot find any verifiable information that this particular coin even came even came from Greece. Unproved allegations in this regard have been made, and theories offered for these coins generally (but not this particular coin), so far. I stand to be corrected on this point - perhaps I may have missed something. Even so, I am still scratching my head  to consider if the Greek Government will even bother to make any further attempt to establish authenticity.
Edited by sel_69l 04/01/2023 09:22 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
When I saw that name my first thought was "oh, my, the actor from 'A Night To Remember' was involved in a fraud?" but then I remember he passed away 6+ years ago! This certainly casts a very poor light on the likelihood of the coin being real. However, consider this: there are art forgers who are good enough to create nearly-undetectable copies of everything from the Old Masters to the Cubists and Dadaists. They use original canvases, with period-correct brushes and materials, and pigments which are chemically identical to those used in the original paintings, and paint with the same techniques and styles of the artists whom they copy. Some of these art forgeries have successfully fooled the most famous art galleries, museums, and collectors in the world. Does it not then logically follow that eventually numismatic forgers will advance their own art to the same level, aided by modern technology and metallurgy, such that the coins they counterfeit are good enough to fool even the most highly regarded numismatic experts in the world, including those at dealers, auction houses, and TPG's?
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
It is possible that the Greek Government has the resources to that may help to prove, (or disprove) authenticity, to a level as suggested by parlayse, as in the case of art.
They have been in the business of verifying their ancient treasures of all sorts for centuries, with whatever may be best technology of the time.
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Replies: 34 / Views: 4,223 |