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 Replies: 14 / Views: 1,053 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Interesting piece - not in Gurney CCC8R Un-Real book under Modern Fantasies - not linked to any 8R button like the 1805's. Any ideas - appeared in my Facebook CCC group with an inquiry? John Lorenzo, Numismatist, United States.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
25095 Posts |
John, the only thing I can say is that's one ugly piece of junk!
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
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Valued Member
United States
131 Posts |
That is a weird one. Did they give a weight?
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Moderator
United States
34397 Posts |
To me the oddly cartoonish look and illegibly degraded letters is indicative of older Chinese fakes.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Ah, John, super interesting piece... and one that I think ties together known silver and gold imitations, the latter of which are thought to emanate out of India/Asia. Can you find out where in the world this piece may have surfaced from, any pedigree or similar? So consider these two pieces. One was sold as similar to a piece apparently shown in that Barrera book out of Spain (which I don't have) on various contemporary and more modern counterfeits/fakes. Shown below:  Now, the piece you're showing is of a somewhat different style than those... HOWEVER, given the overall look AND notably that there are attempts at a 1778 date seen on those silver pieces, one of the gold pieces I'll discuss now, and the piece you just posted (and that piece looks MORE like the styling seen on these following gold pieces), I strongly suspect they are all of rather similar origin. So these gold 8 Escudos imitations... Calico in "La Onza" calls them "indigenous" (as in Native Americans of Central and South America), probably based simply on their crudeness. However, it seems like other cataloguers believe they are contemporary or quasi-contemporary Asian imitations, perhaps out of India. Several examples:  The example from the Huntington Collection sale 10 years ago is up for auction again right now: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/mort...84&l=4268824https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/mex...ption-071515https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/mex...ption-071515https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...-escudo-1778--------------------------------- --------------------------------- Now, one more possible connection... The dating and monarch/style imitated are obviously much different on this following piece, BUT perhaps also out of India... and the reverse engraving plus the look of the rim has struck me as rather similar to the (2) other silver pieces I showed above... so I think worth looking at as part of a study. Steve Album knows their stuff regarding that area of the world, so their guess about that style of drill mark probably being from India is to be noted: https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/mex...ption-071515https://www.icollector.com/MEXICO-C...VF_i27043739 Edited by realeswatcher
07/04/2023 11:53 am
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
Here is the edge picture. Owner supplies a weight of 10.32 grams. Interesting information. Edge seems to have a raised seam reminiscent of an electrotype edge although not 100% confirmed - see photo. Owner says the coin is super thin ... so even at 10.32 grams this still could be 8R size and seems to be sitting on the pan of the balance.   Edited by colonialjohn
07/04/2023 3:09 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
You know, one thing I should note, especially in light of that weight:
With the gold pieces... one holed, one partial hole, one ex-mount... perhaps there was more of a jewelry purpose to some of these?
What's the diameter in mm?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
If the owner supplies the diameter will supply it in this thread.
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New Member
United States
12 Posts |
I'm the owner so I'll chime in here. This "coin" was recently discovered in China. I've asked for a more specific location and will update here if I learn more.
The piece is 38mm diameter, just a little over 1mm thick.
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Moderator
United States
34397 Posts |
Perfect thx for following up on this thread @coch!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
Can it be that someone there is faking the fakes now?
Electrotype would not make sense with a crude fake. That edge may have been filed to disguise the channel for the molten metal.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Somewhere in East or South or Southeast Asia is what would be expected from those attempts at Western characters. Obviously there is design similarity to the types I posted above. But just in terms of the look of the metal, and very low weight, this piece brings to mind a few pillar and portrait old counterfeits/fakes/imitations (?) that have surfaced on ebay out of Indonesia. Does the metal look like tin in hand? ------- The styling and especially the legend characters really bear a strong resemblance to the Stack's Ponterio 2012 gold 8E imitation linked above that they guessed (?) Indonesia on... Edited by realeswatcher
07/05/2023 8:38 pm
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New Member
United States
12 Posts |
I'm pretty new to the metals side of all this, but it feels too hard to be tin.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
381 Posts |
Just a few thoughts... From looking at the photos I would guess that some of these 8-Reale-lookalikes were designed to be attached to costumery or bracelets as a form of bling. I don't think they were ever meant to be examined closely or spent, or the game would well and truly have been up! Some imitation Maria Theresa Talers also have a definite "toy money" look about them. And as kids, I'm sure most of us have played with "toy money". After all, could a toy coin made of cardboard last over 200 years?
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New Member
United States
12 Posts |
Did some digging, the coin came out of Xiamen, a city on the eastern coast of China.
Edited by cochese
07/06/2023 5:05 pm
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Replies: 14 / Views: 1,053 |
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Posted 07/03/2023 5:32 pm
