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Can Anyone Help Me With Some Info? I've Got An 1860 Indian Penny That I Need Help Figuring Out

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New Member

United States
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 Posted 08/01/2023  5:41 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Bro31 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I've got an 1860 Indian 1 cent with looks like has been struck with an 1867 Shield nickel. Is this possible?
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nfine's Avatar
United States
3468 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2023  6:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nfine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unlikely, but post pictures of both sides of the coin so the experts can take a look.
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United States
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 Posted 08/01/2023  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bro31 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Can-Anyone-Help-Me-With-Some-Info?-I've-Got-An-1860-Indian-Penny-That-I-Need-Help-Figuring-Out
Can-Anyone-Help-Me-With-Some-Info?-I've-Got-An-1860-Indian-Penny-That-I-Need-Help-Figuring-Out
Can-Anyone-Help-Me-With-Some-Info?-I've-Got-An-1860-Indian-Penny-That-I-Need-Help-Figuring-Out
Can-Anyone-Help-Me-With-Some-Info?-I've-Got-An-1860-Indian-Penny-That-I-Need-Help-Figuring-Out
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John1's Avatar
United States
56855 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2023  6:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Looks like a vise job.
John1
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United States
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 Posted 08/01/2023  7:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bro31 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For real? But why is the the imprint on the penny and not the other way around.
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Onedollarbillnut's Avatar
United States
745 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2023  8:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Onedollarbillnut to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Shield nickel is harder and the Indian cent is softer
Tim Hughes
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hokiefan_82's Avatar
United States
3641 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2023  9:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hokiefan_82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Also note the 5 is a mirror image, indicative of a Shield nickel and this IHC being squeezed together in a vise or a press.
Even using a couple of cents, you can get a nice reversed impression on each coin by squeezing them together in a vise even though they're of the same composition. Easier with a nickel and a cent, though, since as already mentioned the nickel is harder.
BTW, to the forum! A great place to learn about stuff like this!
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Edited by hokiefan_82
08/01/2023 9:37 pm
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United States
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 Posted 08/01/2023  9:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bro31 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's exactly what I was thinking. However both coins were made of copper and nickel with little difference in the mixture. It's hard for me to think the impression would be so one sided. Then I started to think that is it possible an Indian Head penny was left inside this unused mint in 1860. Then six years later in 1866 after the civil war ended the US starts minting this new shielded nickel that so magnificently struck on top of my 1860 Indian Head penny. You can't say it's impossible. Right?
New Member
United States
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 Posted 08/01/2023  9:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bro31 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I almost want to try and recreate this experiment and see what impressions I come up with
New Member
United States
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 Posted 08/01/2023  10:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bro31 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for all your expertise I appreciate the input
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United States
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 Posted 08/01/2023  11:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumismaticsFTW to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll say, it's impossible.
You realize when you know how to think, it empowers you far beyond those who know only what to think.

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Allcoinage's Avatar
Australia
1510 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2023  01:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Allcoinage to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Only one way too find out if it is a vice coin, get two coins and vice them together see if it makes this impression.
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Errers and Varietys's Avatar
United States
73898 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2023  01:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To CCF! I agree with the comments. It's a Vise Job. You can see the inverted image and how the reverse got damaged as well. It's PMD. Here's more information on it, if you're wondering on how it's done. https://www.error-ref.com/squeeze-j...-garage-job/
Errers and Varietys.
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kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2023  03:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Think about how the nickel got minted and you'll see why your theory is impossible. It doesn't have to be a vice - just lay the nickel on top of the cent and hit it hard with a hammer.
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nickelsearcher's Avatar
United States
15400 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2023  05:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the CCF


Quote:
You can't say it's impossible. Right?


I'll say it as well - It's impossible that coin left the mint in that state.
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.jk-dk.art
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16810 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2023  06:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You can't say it's impossible. Right?

Very few things in this universe are genuinely impossible. It's not impossible that all of the oxygen molecules in the room you are sitting in spontaneously decide to migrate up into the top-northmost corner of the room you're sitting in, and remain there long enough for you to asphyxiate. That's "not impossible" either - just very, very, very improbable.

To make your coin like this in the mint, a number of extremely improbable events need to happen, sequentially:
- A normal 1860 penny gets struck, then "left behind" in the Mint. For six years.
- Some years later, while striking a batch of nickels, a nickel die cap occurs (where a normally struck nickel gets stuck inside the die, instead of being ejected, and the coin is used as the de-facto die for a subsequent striking).
- The lost penny magically reappears just at that moment, and mysteriously happens to land itself inside the coin press where the capped nickel is about to create a brockage.
- Instead of a regular brockage mint error, this "quasi-brockage error" occurs instead. It then doesn't get stuck or jam the die on its way out of the press.
- This coin then somehow escapes the eagle eyes of the quality control inspectors, and enters circulation (presumably as a penny, despite the fact they were striking nickels that day).
- The coin circulates for quite some time, given the amount of wear evident upon it, and nobody noticed that it was odd or unusual in any way, since they all seem to have just spent it as a penny.

Now, compare this sequence of consecutive highly improbable events, with the following:

- A perfectly normal 1860 penny is struck, and enters circulation for at least six years.
- A perfectly normal Shield nickel is struck, some years later, and also enters circulation.
- At some future point (perhaps decades after both coins were struck), these two coins get squeezed together, either accidentally or deliberately, leaving the partial impression of the nickel upon the cent. How much damage the cent caused on the nickel is unknown, since we do not have the nickel to examine.

Science relies on the principle known as Occam's Razor. It basically states that, when you have to choose between two possible explanations, choose the one with the fewest number of improbable events, because that is the option that is most likely to be true.

Could your coin's current state have been created inside a Mint? Yes. But it does not need to have been made this way inside a Mint, since anyone with access to two coins and a relatively low pressure vise can recreate a similar-looking coin. So, the most probable explanation is that this occurred outside of the Mint, and is therefore not a mint error.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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