Rare Byzantine John V Palaeologus Bi Tornese - A Modern Fabrication Apparently.

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Author	Replies: 6 / Views: 816
ttkoo Pillar of the Community Australia 2576 Posts	Posted 10/15/2023 10:52 pm Hi all, I presented this coin on CCF earlier this year http://goccf.com/t/442222 and thought I had an attribution of sorts with John V. However, on the World of Coins forum, after a lengthy investigation, I was given the following response from the respected resident byzantine expert. "The consensus of multiple collectors is that while the Helios 7 coin has the fabric of coins prior to the Cantacuzene Civil War, the below coin (aka yours) is a modern fabrication based on similar type of coins found on Ebay." I have to comment that to my eye, it doesn't seem to be typical of a "modern fabrication" but I do respect the opinion of others far more experienced in byzantine coins than myself. I have inserted the comparison coin (top images) and my own (the crusty one) below. Luckily the 5 coin lot it came with only set me back around AUD30, so no real harm done, and a giant money spinner for the fabricator. Description Ancients John V Palaeologus (1341-1391). BI tornese (17mm, 0.82 gm, 12h). NGC (photo certificate) Choice XF 4/5 - 3/5, edge bend. Thessalonica (?). Standing figure of John V holding cross scepter and globe / Patriarchal cross, stars at each end of crossbars, base flanked by B - B (the left reverted). Sear --. DOC --. LPC --. Unpublished in all major references and possibly unique! Dark gray "find" patina intact, edge somewhat bent. Ex Helios 7 (Munich, 12 December 2011), lot 190 (realized 2,000 euro hammer). HID02901242017 Keywords:john v BI tornese palaeologus unpublished The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient. Report this Post to the Staff

january1may Pillar of the Community Russian Federation 5185 Posts	Posted 10/16/2023 03:18 am I guess it could be one of the Emporium Hamburg fakes, like this one? I agree I wouldn't have suspected it either. Report this Post to the Staff
ttkoo Pillar of the Community Australia 2576 Posts	Posted 10/16/2023 04:02 am Interesting read on that Emporium Hamburg fakes link, thanks for providing it J1M. I wonder, if as Spence has mentioned, I should give mine an acetone soak. I had toyed with the idea of treating it like an uncleaned ancient roman, and carefully dig away at the "build up". I guess I have nothing to lose numismatically. The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient. Edited by ttkoo 10/16/2023 04:03 am Report this Post to the Staff
ttkoo Pillar of the Community Australia 2576 Posts	Posted 10/16/2023 04:05 am I had better send off a request for Numista to remove my entry from their database, so it doesn't helps to perpetuate the myth. The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient. Report this Post to the Staff
Spence Moderator United States 34476 Posts	Posted 10/16/2023 09:06 am Quote: I wonder, if as Spence has mentioned, I should give mine an acetone soak. Yep that seems like a reasonable next step. Sorry to hear that you have picked up a stinker. "If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb "The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz Report this Post to the Staff
ttkoo Pillar of the Community Australia 2576 Posts	Posted 10/16/2023 9:48 pm Quote: Yep that seems like a reasonable next step. Sorry to hear that you have picked up a stinker. No damage, you live and learn. I gave it a good acetone soak and a gentle wipe over with a q tip - the tip was heavily stained brown.... and copper green. No noticeable change in physical appearance. Throwing caution out the door, I had a bit of a pick with a sharpened bamboo skewer. Lots of flake and crumbling removal, different to an uncleaned roman giving up it's secrets, this seemed more like clay, or perhaps a plaster of some kind. The reverse (B) side has lost a large proportion of it's sharpness, however, there is definitely metal underneath, though it would appear to me to be heavily corroded. And dare I say it, I am seeing silver here and there like a silver wash. The closer I look, the more it looks cast. The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient. Edited by ttkoo 10/16/2023 9:50 pm Report this Post to the Staff
ttkoo Pillar of the Community Australia 2576 Posts	Posted 10/18/2023 01:18 am 12 minutes in an ultrasonic bath, de-mineralised water and a little Lux flakes detergent. Lots of the 'clay' came off the emperor side, exposing more of the silver underneath, and then that comes off too. On the B side, and the rim crack on the emperor side, there is unmistakable brass coming through in places (arrrowed). Actually finding more interest in exposing the truth than I did searching for attribution. The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient. Report this Post to the Staff
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