Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall 300,000 items to help build your collection! Specializing in Modern Numismatics Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Ancona And Venice - 13th C. Italian Grossi

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 6 / Views: 608Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7934 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2023  09:33 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
In the century before the gros tournois emerged to lead a transformation of larger silver coinage in northern Europe, somewhat smaller "grossi" of various types were popping up on the Italian peninsula, beginning with the Sicilian ducalis of 1140, then the Venetian grosso of Enrico Dandolo in the waning years of the 12th century. Both of these "new" types appear to have been inspired by contemporary silver/billon Byzantine types that showed Christ on one side, and the emperor being anointed by another holy figure (Mary, the archangel Michael, St. Demetrius etc.) on the other. The Venice take was to have Saint Mark on the right, handing a staff to the doge on the left.

Dandolo's grosso is a bit pricey, but I just landed this one from his successor, doge Pietro Ziani (1204-1229), Biaggi 2766:
Ancona-And-Venice---13th-C.-Italian-Grossi
Ancona-And-Venice---13th-C.-Italian-Grossi

Ancona was a latecomer, but came up with a novel grosso type about 50 years later, which became a standard for the small city-states of central Italy (Ancona, Ascoli, Rimini, Pesaro, etc.). The grosso agontano features a standing, facing local saint who is named on one side, and the city name around a cross on the other (the Milanese grosso differs a bit in having a seated St.Ambrose). While the reverse looks more or less the same as the Hohenstaufen era denari that preceded it, the standing bishop-saint is new. Here is an anonymous grosso agontano of Ancona (c. 1250-1350), Biaggi 34:
Ancona-And-Venice---13th-C.-Italian-Grossi
Ancona-And-Venice---13th-C.-Italian-Grossi

After keeping an eye out for both types at various far-flung autions, I was pleased to get them recently from a SoCal dealer that a few of us here have done lots of business with over the last few decades.
Edited by tdziemia
10/26/2023 09:39 am
Moderator
Learn More...
jbuck's Avatar
United States
187702 Posts
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
HondoB's Avatar
United States
24992 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2023  12:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HondoB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting and informative, tdziemia. And your coins are fantastic!
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2124 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2023  3:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice acquisitions, tdziemia. And interesting to have the background, too.

When Louis IX of France introduced the gros tournois around 1270, it was most likely the Venetian grossi that were the inspiration. The design was different though, possibly inspired by the bezants from Jerusalem, where Louis spent time during the 7th crusade.
Moderator
Learn More...
Spence's Avatar
United States
34397 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2023  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Super pick-ups @tdz. Thx for posting them with this background info.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7934 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2023  9:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A picture is worth a thousand words:
Ancona-And-Venice---13th-C.-Italian-Grossi

The similarities in the design elements are evident, even if coining technique was different, and the Venetian coin was smaller,

I agree that the gros tournois had different sources of inspiration.
Maybe the size was inspired by the besant, and some of the design elements were home grown (did the chatel tournois already exist on the denier?).
(edited 10/27)
Edited by tdziemia
10/27/2023 07:47 am
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2124 Posts
 Posted 10/27/2023  09:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
A picture is worth a thousand words:

That picture removes any doubt on where the inspiration came from.

Quote:
I agree that the gros tournois had different sources of inspiration.
Maybe the size was inspired by the besant, and some of the design elements were home grown (did the chatel tournois already exist on the denier?).

I would say the idea of making a coin that was larger than the denier was picked up from Italy, but the French king wanted his own design. The gros tournois is indeed about the same size and weight as a bezant, but the bezant is a gold coin, so the comparison is not entirely accurate. But another picture illustrates how the idea of double circles of inscription may have come from the bezant. The chatel tournois deniers had been around since the early 1200s, and one can see how the gros tournois is really made up of a denier tournois with an extra surrounding line of text on one side and twelwe fleurs-de-lys on the other side. Even the text in the inner circles of the gros tournois are identical to those of the denier tournois.

Ancona-And-Venice---13th-C.-Italian-Grossi
  Previous TopicReplies: 6 / Views: 608Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.3 seconds to rattle this change. Forums