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 Replies: 14 / Views: 755 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
6506 Posts |
Every once in a while I run across a Wexler entry for doubling on the master die, master hub, working hub. That makes plenty of sense. Today I encountered an entry for WSDO, indicating series doubling. The comment was, "Placed in use partway through 1971 and remained in use through all of 1972. It can be found on coins of all three mints." What exactly does "series" mean in this context? I checked the catalog for that year on PCGS, and the doubling pictured doesn't happen on all 1971-D Kennedy halves. So how can a doubled obverse phenomenon last for multiple years, but not appear on all coins struck? http://www.doubleddie.com/2787237.html |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
74233 Posts |
Very interesting.  Errers and Varietys.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4404 Posts |
I think (but am not certain) that it is a doubled master die but at the time there were multiple master dies in use so they lasted multiple years. CONECA uses this terminology for these too if I'm not mistaken. We are getting the rest of the Wexler half dollar files and listings soon, so hopefully can clarify a lot of the hub/die issues for those Kennedy half files eventually. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8751 Posts |
I would assume that there was more than one master die used and would not carry over to all working hubs and dies, kind of like the 72 Lincoln Cent and would also assume that the term "Series" is used because there was more than one year that the doubled master was used. You notice I'm doing a lot of assuming.  I know very little about halves. I took too long typing and thinking, Tanner beat me to it.... -makecents-
Edited by -makecents-
12/01/2023 4:50 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
6506 Posts |
Thanks for the explanation, Tanner and -makecents-. I suppose that makes sense, although the Mint entertained a rather flexible understanding of "master die". To the point about CONECA, I did a Google search and found no results anywhere except the Wexler entries where I encountered the term, plus a few random mentions with no explanation. In fact, I thoroughly checked Variety Vista for the DDO attribution, and it makes no mention of the series doubling anywhere on the site, including the Obverse Design Varieties section. That coin really got the blood pumping for a few hours. It has the clear split on the I and a small notch on the N of IN. The T in Liberty has a split left tip, and the Y has a doubled or tripled base. Even the tip of the L is a bit thicker than usual for 1971. That'll be a little $3 lesson called Always Check Wexler First. =P |
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Pillar of the Community
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6506 Posts |
This isn't my coin, but it's a PCGS TrueView example that really shows the features well. A shame that it wasn't higher in the MS list, or I might have noticed it earlier when I was looking for comparison images. https://www.pcgs.com/cert/82616059 |
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Pillar of the Community
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8751 Posts |
Cool! I could immediately see the split on the T's upper left serif.
-makecents-
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6506 Posts |
I had actually wondered why the 1971-D 50c FS-101 had such a crazy triple split serif on the T. Now I understand. It's a doubled die of a doubled hub. I'm also realizing why I was confused. The big bad FS-101 has the hub doubling, too. So when I saw the doubling on my coin, and saw that much of it matched the FS-101 on PCGS and VV, then I assumed it was a good pick. The T on my coin didn't have the crazy triple split T, but it did have a clearly split double serif, and sometimes those fine features wear a bit on dies. If my coin has doubling that closely matches a known doubled die, then it must be legit, right? Alas, the complexities of varieties! |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
Interesting point, which was very few debate here. Tan is right about multiple Master Dies. If one was Doebbled then will produce multiple Working Hubs and manny, manny working Dies.
Not sure 100% but in one of the mint papers I reed tha they do in that time the MM on Working Hubs So is normal to has on all facility this.
The Masre Hub and Master Die if was not change the design can pass manny years of strikes if not deteriorate.
PCGS show and certify as FS-101 just the 71-D. What was the reason? Hard to say.
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Pillar of the Community
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6506 Posts |
The 1971-D FS-101 has massive die doubling on We Trust. I studied it very intensely yesterday plus FS-102, trying to figure it out. It's just confusing because the doubled die was hubbed from a doubled working hub.
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Moderator
 United States
96209 Posts |
great conversation here - thanks for bringing it up Brand.
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Pillar of the Community
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5774 Posts |
Quote:
...Not sure 100% but in one of the mint papers I reed tha they do in that time the MM on Working Hubs ... The MM was put on the working hub in 1971? I thought that didn't happen until 1990. MMs were applied to the individual working dies up until 1990 weren't they? Words of encouragement are one of the major food groups.
We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
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Pillar of the Community
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4404 Posts |
I was wrong, master hub issue not master die. From Wexler's "Doubled Master Hub - Reduction Lathe Doubling" page: Quote:
Keep in mind that this doubling is on the master hub. The master hub will then produce the master die for that year which in turn will produce all of the working hubs for that year. The working hubs will in turn produce all of the working dies for that year. This means that all of the working dies for that denomination will have the exact same doubling and consequently so will all of the coins of that denomination for that year.
But it gets worse. Remember that until the final two digits of the date were added to the master design in the mid-1980s, the intent was to use the master hub over a period of several years. This means that not only will the doubled image appear on all coins of that denomination produced that year, but it will be found on all coins of that denomination for all of the years in which that doubled master hub is used to produce master dies. This identical doubling which will appear on coins over a span of several years is referred to as "series doubling" by some in the hobby. (emphasis added) https://doubleddie.com/58285.htmlQuote:
The MM was put on the working hub in 1971? You are mostly correct. They started to add the MM to the master die for cents and nickels in 1990. 1991 for dimes, quarters, half dollars. Before that they were added directly to the working die. Edited by Tanman2001
12/02/2023 4:00 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6506 Posts |
Thanks, Tanner. I am adding that to my bookmarks. Odd that I didn't find it with a Google search on site:doubleddie.com series doubling, but maybe it slipped past me on the results page.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1464 Posts |
Helpful information. Thanks!
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Replies: 14 / Views: 755 |
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Posted 12/01/2023 4:38 pm
